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Author Topic:   Possible motte at Crowdecote in Derbyshire
castleuk
unregistered
posted 02-08-2006 01:41 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Hi
I've just got back from looking at the possible motte at Crowdecote OS 119 SK 100-653 Derbyshire. Have anyone been? there's not much to see, there could be a motte, the side by the river could be scarped but some times you see what you want to see!
the road side where the ditch would be has gone, with the houses and the road, also the site is overlooked by a high bank, driving down I got a great picture of Pilsbury Castle SK 114-638from above!! the one thing in its favour is the names of the houses, Castle Cottage and Castle Way, a lady I met, who lived in the village, didn't know anything about a castle, only the one at Pilsbury.
On the way to Hartington for a pint, I went to see Banktop Motte OS 119 SK 126-616 Derbyshire, which is a good looking mound, over looking the river, flat-topped with a big rock-cut ditch, that is over looked by another mound, which could be part of the castle, both site where possibly thrown up during the Anarchy.
Has anyone else been or knows any thing about the two mottes??
Yours Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle location website

ElCid
Senior Member
posted 02-08-2006 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElCid     Edit/Delete Message
Ummmm. . . . . sounds interesting. I've only been to Pilsbury but not the others. Might have a trip over this week-end to take a look.

Peter
Yorkshire

castleuk
unregistered
posted 02-09-2006 04:22 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Hi Peter
Please tell me what you think about the mottes, there is tons of info at the new Pilsbury Castle website, http://www.pilsburycastle.org.uk
info on the two mottes takes abit of finding. A real coal fire, good beer and a cheese sandwich, awaits you in the Devonshire Arms at Hartington. Castle hunting at its best, just heaven!!!
yours Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle location website

ElCid
Senior Member
posted 02-09-2006 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElCid     Edit/Delete Message
Chris
What a brilliant web site for Pilsbury. . . . .
I might well sample the ale too. I'll report back.

Best
Peter B.

ElCid
Senior Member
posted 02-12-2006 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElCid     Edit/Delete Message
Went to have a look today. By the time I got to Crowdecote the weather was awful so will go back soon for a better look. I stopped in the village (tiny village with a nice looking pub that shuts at 3pm on a Sunday!) but couldn't make obvious sense of a motte.

By this time though was rather damp after walking from Hartington to Pilsbury and back.

Banktop Motte was a new site to me (you see a lot more if you walk rather than drive. . . . .). From the raod to Pilsbury the motte above the river looks very impressive and the rock cut ditch to the ladward side very obvious. From this viewpoint there does indeed appear to be a second motte at the highest part of the hill above the other with a sloping bailey between.

However, from the road on the other side of Bank Top farm (closer to Hartington) and now at the back of the 'second motte' it looks less obviously scarped by man. On the old maps though this high point is marked as a 'tumulous' so it might be archaeological.

A very interesting site this being so close to Pilsbury but obviously quite a substantial earthwork. I'd love to know more and have a rootle around on the site itself (private land).

Peter

castleuk
unregistered
posted 02-12-2006 05:05 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Hi Peter
The Pilsbury Castle website, says this about the motte at Crowdecote,

Earlier research
Comparatively little research had been undertaken on the castle site prior to the Arteamus investigations. The first record that has previously been accepted as referring to Pilsbury Castle appeared in a book cataloguing the collections of Micah Salt (Turner 1899, 139). This refers to a list of items received in 1896 from “the site of an ancient mansion, Castle Field, Crowdycote [sic]”. Following the list of relics, he states that “a passage like a cave had been made under the foundations”. Turner later referred to this excavation again (Turner 1903, 162), saying: “At Crowdicote [sic], near Hartington, there are remains of foundations of an old castle. A passage like a cave had been made under them. In it were found, about twenty years ago, a number of relics… The cottages near the spot are partly built of sandstone, evidently from the ruins.”

These relics were said to include silver coins (one of Henry III), an iron arrow point, bronze key, buckle and a bronze spur rowel, among other objects. They now seem to be lost.

It seems unlikely to us that this refers to Pilsbury Castle, although there appears to be no record of a Castle Field at Crowdecote.
• There are no physical signs of any excavation at Pilsbury Castle.
• There is no reason why Turner would not have named the site correctly.
• There are no cottages nearby fitting this description.
• The descriptions of the find site are inconsistent, first calling it a mansion and later the foundations of a castle.
• If the artefacts were found within the fabric of the motte, they provide a terminus post quem for its completion. Henry III was not crowned until 1216, which seems improbably late for the earthworks.

A much more likely candidate would seem to be the putative artificial hillock at Dove Mount in Crowdecote (Hurford and Sheppard in Guilbert 2005). This is further discussed below.

There is another apparent motte without any visible bailey on a similar raised area of ground at Bank Top, between Pilsbury and Hartington (SK 126616) (Plate 4). This is much smaller, measuring only 20 metres in diameter but with a rock-cut ditch 2.5 metres deep. A further motte site has recently been suggested at Crowdecote (SK100653) (Hurford and Sheppard in Guilbert 2005), also situated near the River Dove and now topped by a bungalow (Plate 5). It is tempting to speculate that these three sites might have been part of an intended series of defensive works on the boundaries of the de Ferrers’ lands, one in each of the three Domesday manors of Hartington, Pilsbury and Ludwell, and the now-lost site of Soham. An alternative explanation might be that Pilsbury Castle was built 1070–80, while the two smaller earthworks at Bank Top and Crowdecote were thrown up during the Anarchy.

The presence of another apparent ringwork at Bank Top, between Pilsbury and Hartington, and a third possibly man-made mound at Crowdecote perhaps implies that all might have been constructed as part of a planned line of defences along the river.

The fact that the castle site is overlooked from the limestone plateau is not of great importance. In the first place, the higher ground lay within the de Ferrers’ estates, while the ridge on the opposite bank of the river, which did not belong to them, was several hundred metres away. Secondly, timber castles had been initially conceived for defence against mounted soldiers, who had to dismount to fight, and to resist violent, hand-fought attacks on gates and other parts of their perimeters. Only later did siege warfare, with massive siege engines, develop (Higham and Barker 1992, 41).

Do you know anything about (Hurford and Sheppard in Guilbert 2005)?
Its hard to see a motte at Crowdecote, its the names of the houses that gives a clue and I need to go back and find the sandstone cottages!
Banktop motte is a substantial piece of work, with its flat-top and rock-cut ditch, Pastscape says "There is no evidence for a bailey", but it could be one big bailey, as the land falls away on the road side, it doesn't look like a castle of the Anarchy, the one at Crowdecote could be, there to guard the ford.
Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle location website

Peter
Member
posted 02-14-2006 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Just been digging out (no pun!) a book;
The North Derbyshire Archaeological Survey, which has plenty of information. Also drawings of all castles and moated sites etc.
And anything else medieval if it comes to that.
Peter

ElCid
Senior Member
posted 02-15-2006 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElCid     Edit/Delete Message
Peter
This sounds interesting and I am not at all familiar with the book. Is it an annual report or an actual book?. ISBN would be useful if you don't mind and I will get a copy.
thanks
Peter B.
Yorkshire

ElCid
Senior Member
posted 05-07-2006 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElCid     Edit/Delete Message
Chris
I've been to Crowdecote today and had a good rootle around. Castle Cottage is opposite what might be a scarped banking (I see what you mean now). However, the scarped bank leads to a flattish topped grasy area and then the road and then the cottages. No obvious signs of ditches or other features here.

Just below the scarp are the remanins of a water mill and then the crossing of the river. The sandstone remains of the mill might be medieval and are quite extensive.

Just above the mill is what are today marked as 'quarry workings' and a danger sign and looks like a limestone working of some sort. Clearly not connected with the mill buildings (being of different rock) the limestone face has a clear tunnel or cave opening in it?.

This is between the mill and the possible motte?.

I've not yet been able to get hold of the Derbyshire Archaeological Survey report mentioned by Peter so this might add more info on the area.

There are a number of sandstone cottages in Crowdecote including the old Toll House and the building just behind it. There are others too.

The river just here is not only a boundary between Derbyshire and Staffordshire (and it was a boundary in medieval times) it is also a boundary between Limestone (derbs) and Sandstone (staffs).

I'll open a post on Castle Duncan where I can include a few pictures taken today.

Cheers

Peter B.
Yorkshire.

ElCid
Senior Member
posted 05-07-2006 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElCid     Edit/Delete Message
CastleDuncan post with photo's here: http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1449

Cheers

Peter

Peter
Member
posted 05-08-2006 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Just had a look in the Survey, and Crowdecote is not even mentioned!
Peter

castleuk
unregistered
posted 05-09-2006 07:27 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Hi Peter
Thanks for the post, I'm going to go back to Crowdecote at the weekend, how do you access the mill?
Could the scarped bank, that leads to a flattish topped grassy area be a bailey? and the road and the cottages, the site of the motte? or maybe the site was a ringwork?
Yours Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle location website

ElCid
Senior Member
posted 05-09-2006 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElCid     Edit/Delete Message
Peter - no, Crowdecote isn't normally considered a motte site which makes Chris's suggestion all the more interesting.

Chris - access to the mill is via a track through a couple of metal gates opposite the old Toll House (see my picture on CastleDuncan) that leads to a small water treatment plant. The gates are unlocked - the remains of the mill are just by the treatment plant.

I suspect it gets very overgrown in full summer as the vegetation is beginning to sprout up already. Should still be OK at the weekend of course.

Let us know how you get on.

Peter B.

All times are PT (US)

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