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Author Topic:   A very small kingdom
Moe
Member
posted 05-11-2001 05:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moe   Click Here to Email Moe     Edit/Delete Message
Lets just imagine in the old days there was a small kingdom (think Liechestein (sic) or Luxembourg (again sic!)). It has no allies nor enemies. Self govern. There would be a King or a Queen right?
1. If there is only a castle, then it would be both a fort and dwelling, yes?
2. Let's say the most of the towns folk are farmers, would they pay tax so that the King/Queen may have funds to look after them?
3. ALternatively, how would the small kingdom survive on beside taxes?

Levan
Moderator
posted 05-11-2001 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Levan   Click Here to Email Levan     Edit/Delete Message
I'm playing devil's advocate here, but if it had no enemies, why would it need a castle at all? Status? That's actually why a lot of castles were built! Perhaps a 'potential' enemy? Food for thought!

Peter
Member
posted 05-11-2001 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
I think you have answered your own question..
.. "most of the townfolk are farmers .. "
A small Kingdomship would look after itself. Taxes to the King\Lord would be in grain, wine, horses, cows etc.
Anything not produced would be sold\bartered outside the Kingdom.
Any Kingdom survives or falls on its harvest. This is why invading armies would 'raze' the countryside. If we can't survive, neither will you !

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 05-11-2001 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Your castle would be a fortified dwelling of the ruler(king/queen) with provisions for a small garrison of full time soldiers.

I see a few sticking points thoogh. If you are a small kingdom relying only on taxing your farmers you would be fairly poor and your fortunes subject to local crop failure. This would make you easy prey for conquest and your little kingdom would not survive!
No man is an island, nor any small kingdom for that matter. To survive you would need to be allied to someone fairly powerful for you could hardly raise a defence against an army from your small population and lack of wealth.
Also, in relation to your 3rd question, note that many small, powerful states in history had some means by which they became powerful. The most common was if you commanded a significant trade route(river, lake, harbour or mountain pass), from which you could derive taxes on passage. This extra money could allow you to purchase the sevices of professional soldiers and also build numerous, very strong castles and town defences. Armies would often pass such well fortified places by.
You might also have an industry such as mining, cloth making, silversmithing etc which would bring your little kingdom extra wealth and thus extra taxes.
So if I were you I would place my kingdom to command a trade route, have mines and workers to value add the mined product and use the extra wealth to build a very strong castle and fortified towns with paid soldiers to garrison them(not enough for an army, but just enough to garrison the places). And be nice to your neighbours.

Hope that helps.

Erik

Moe
Member
posted 05-12-2001 12:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moe   Click Here to Email Moe     Edit/Delete Message
10 points for all of you and a sack full of gold!
Omigod! This is excellent feedback!
For a non-starter like me who's into research this is big. Haven't much time to read so the internet is my lifeline.
Anyway (sorry for sidtracking:
So my small either kingdom would be very poor, hence susceptible for conquest, or a powerful kingdom which control a trade route or something like that. Two Scenarios:

1. Poor kingdom - obviously I would want to be allies with a powerful kingdom, yes? What can I possibly give beside my beautiful Queen your King would want to marry, and grains and crops. You might as well conquer me. But here I am wanting to be independent!
How is that like in the old days? Do I just give up?

2. So I control a trade route, and a centre for barter and trade, naturally I would have a small but powerful army. But for a very small kingdom, the size of London say, it would still be easy for other kingdoms to pick up a fight with me. How does one pick up a fight in the old days besides saying 'Hmmm I like your country cos it's sinfully rich and enticing' and playing the religious issues between Catholic and Protestant?

Two bags of curry spice from this part of the world for the best feedback! NOT!

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 05-13-2001 12:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Scenario number 1. Yes, just give up. It all depends on the time period just how suceptible your little kingdom would be. At the height of stone castle building(around 12-14th century) you would be very much at risk.
A point to note. Farmers didn't produce a large surplus, so as a small kingdom you could hardly raise any significant export of agricultural goods. Certainly not enough to endear yourself to a powerful neighbour. And why would they buy it off you when they could just take over the land a levy taxes for themselves.
One alternative is to base yourself in a time where you could hide in the yet to be developed vastness of the European forests before the formation of great states, probably pre Roman or maybe dark ages for a short time. Another would be to hide your little kingdom in some mountainous, inhospitable place and hope no-one wants your little corner of the world.

Scenario number 2. If you fortify your kingdom well enough others may not wish to try and take you over. Don't forget, war was expensive to wage and in the 14th century(the period I know a little about) castles and fortified towns were often bypassed in favour of easier targets. Campaings were usually short lived, so if you could hold them at the gate for long enough they'd eventually go away in search of plunder else where.
Declaring war in the middle ages required nothing more than wanting to expand your kingdom(wealth and power). Excuses varied from religious to purporting some hereditary right over the land. It was basically a free for all as long as you were very careful whose toes you stepped on, who your allies were and that you had sufficient backing. Basically things haven't changed!

Hope that helps.
I base my opinions on general reading and could well have erred in places. My knowledge of military campaings of the middle ages comes mainly from Froissart's cronicles of the 14th century.
Feel free to critique, one and all.

Erik

[This message has been edited by Erik Schmidt (edited 05-13-2001).]

Merlin
Senior Member
posted 05-15-2001 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Merlin   Click Here to Email Merlin     Edit/Delete Message
In medieval Europe, the man or women on top of the feudal structure you described wouldn't call himself king or queen - the 'regnum' would just be to small and also it's political, miltary weight. Structures that big came in existance when the emperor or king of a larger kingdom lost the power to control it's whole feudal system, an some of the earls or dukes could get a lot of independency. Still they needed a strong alliance with another kindom to survive. It's ridiculous if you call yourself king if your kingdom's not bigger as London. The kings of the sourrounding lands would never accept you to be one of them. Imagine if Adam of Liechtenstein or Rainer of Monaco would go and tell the world tomorrow that they've decided to become Kings...

penelope
Member
posted 06-09-2001 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for penelope   Click Here to Email penelope     Edit/Delete Message
Moe if I become to much of a pain tell me to back off.
Alright setting for a historical piece, but take your story into fantasy and you could have a lot more fun. Supposing your a small kingdom say Switzerland, with very ancient ties. The country has a policy that every able-bodided person must due say a three year tour of duty. Then your kingdom has a fully trained army at it's disposal, which could muster say thirty thousand in a week. Your kingdom could be the largest producers of say diamonds, but because of there military policy nobody bothers them. Then you could introduce another race with severe growing pains.

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 06-09-2001 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Penelope,
Moe mentions the size of his kingdom as that of Liechestein or Luxembourg.
Switzerland is huge in comparison.
As you point out, if his kindom were that large, he could muster quite an army, just as the Swiss did, but this would no longer make it a small kindom.

Erik

Merlin
Senior Member
posted 06-11-2001 01:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Merlin   Click Here to Email Merlin     Edit/Delete Message
Bad example. Switzerland NEVER was a kingdom. In it's actual shape, it exists since 1848, and before was a strange puzzle of late medieval districts. The western (french speaking) part of the country was part of the kingdom of Burgundy until 1032, and after then all of today's Switzerland belonged to the "holy roman empire" until the 16. century. But there never was a king of Switzerland, it would be against everything that this country stands for. So please look for something else...

penelope
Member
posted 06-12-2001 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for penelope   Click Here to Email penelope     Edit/Delete Message
Okay my example of a country was poor, but I'm Canadian and Switzerland is small in comparison. But what about the military draft it couldn't have been that bad of an idea. Considering most nations do it today except Canada.

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 06-13-2001 02:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
By "Draft", do you mean the system whereby all males go to military training at a certain age? If so, then there are few countries that still do that now.

Erik

penelope
Member
posted 06-13-2001 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for penelope   Click Here to Email penelope     Edit/Delete Message
Gentlemen I'd like to redeem myself if I may?
My father came from a place called the Territory of Triesta. You won't find it on any maps, it hasn't exsisted since WWII. My father says it went from the Italian coast to the Dolomites. It was situated between Austria, Italy,and Yugoslavia. Also see if you can find a copy of a 19thC map of europe. At the time europe was a patchwork of Principality's, duchy's, and baroney's.

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 06-14-2001 04:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
In what way was Triesta independant of the surrounding countries?
It must have been connected to the Italian coast, at best guess probably where the city of Trieste lies today.

Erik

Moe
Member
posted 06-15-2001 06:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moe   Click Here to Email Moe     Edit/Delete Message
A couple of hundred years ago, one state in our country paid up gold leaves sitting atop this small gold tree to a neighbouring country as 'protection' money/gift, just so that big bother doesn't come and bully, you know what I mean. Still it managed to retain it's independence and prospered quite a bit until the Age of Industry...Having said that big bother didn't come to help when this small state was invaded by some powerful nation from the West. Big brother got away.
So I was kinda wondering, something similar could have happened to a small kingdom back then right. At least, it would be believable, right?


[This message has been edited by Moe (edited 06-15-2001).]

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