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Author
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Topic: Grammar
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Marko
Senior Member
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posted 06-24-2001 02:49 PM
  
I've got a question concerning English grammar. When naming a castle it is almost always -name- Castle; as in Stirling Castle.
Only sometimes its Castle -name-; as in Castle Tioram. How does this work; when do you put the word castle behind the name and when in front of it?------------------
"But round about the castle there began to grow a hedge of thorns, which every year became higher...."
Visit my website at http://www.castles.nl/
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AJR
Senior Member
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posted 06-25-2001 01:07 AM
Yes Marko, this must appear very confusing. However, as far as I am aware, there is no rule. Things become even more confusing in the instance of Castle Hedingham Castle. Trust the English language to come up with such names !!Sorry to be of no help whatsoever.
Andrew |
Gordon
unregistered
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posted 06-25-2001 03:13 AM
I'm not sure how common putting 'castle' first is in England, but it certainly seems to be more common in the Gaelic areas of Scotland. It does occur in the lowlands though usually in areas where Gaelic influence was felt. It may simply be one of those strange anomolies of the English, and adopted by the Scots, Welsh and Irish. It's similar to putting adjectives before nouns, or driving on the wrong side of the road.
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'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page |
AJR
Senior Member
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posted 06-25-2001 03:35 AM
I agree that it is not very common to see the "castle" in front of the name in England. It confuses me sometimes when referring to Scottish or even Welsh castles - and now some insist on being called by "Castell". Marko, if we over here can't work it out, it's not a surprise that non-Brits have trouble !!! |
duncan
Senior Member
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posted 06-25-2001 10:58 AM
Scots, Irish, and Welsh language's all have their roots in the very history of the Gaels, unlike English which owes its start to Latin.
In Gaelic the word Caer {castle} is used as a 'fronting' word to emphasize a place as in Castle Tioram or word of discription as in Dun {grayish brown or red color} Eideann {Edinburgh}.
In the English the name comes first before the discription.
I'm not that good at structural linguistics and this may not be totly correct as this is how i remember it as was explained to me many years ago.
Hope it helps.------------------
Megan and Ralph
CASTLE DUNCAN Vivo vivere vixi victum
simul Honorare |
Gordon
unregistered
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posted 06-25-2001 11:49 AM
Dun can also mean 'fort' as in Dunbarton...'Dun Breattan'...fort of the Britons. Hence it's appearance in so many Scots castle names..Dunollie, Dunstaffnage, Dunderave, Duntreath.
The introduction of English has caused it's appearance to be corrupted or confused. for instance the prefix drum, meaning a field appears in Drumry..drum ri...field of the King, however in some names it is a corruption of Dun. There is also Dum, as in Dumbarton. The spelling with n refers to the county, and with m to the town. This was simply due to a cartographers error.------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page |
duncan
Senior Member
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posted 06-25-2001 01:17 PM
Thanks Gordon i forgot to mention that Dun had the two meanings.
And if every one is not confused enough already;
Another Gaelic word for castle is Caisteal. Although this is the Gaelic of today and i'm fairly certain it is from the classical or high Gaelic from around the 12 century which lasted to about the 18th c being taught to the children of the aristocracy in both Scotland and Ireland. My personel opinion is that the high speach was corupted by Latin or English influence in the search for a more Anglicisation way of life late in the 11th c or the early 12th c.
Could that be your word Andrew? |
Marko
Senior Member
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posted 06-25-2001 02:18 PM
Well, well.
All very interesting but also confusing. So when translating a non-English castle name into English I can choose whatever option I want (in front or after).
Also in Dutch there are several words to use for a castle; "kasteel", "burcht" and "slot". All may have a slightly different meaning but they are being used for all kinds of buildings. Thankx for the interesting replies. |
Peter
Member
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posted 06-25-2001 02:38 PM
I think this before & after think is pretty well spread all over Europe. Also the spelling of the word 'castle'.
Italy is pretty much the same. And as Marko says the spelling of the word can infirm a slightly different type of building.
One straight forward difference in Italy is the dropping of the 'o' in Castello. When that 'o' is followed by another vowel.
Castell' Arianna. |
Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 07-03-2001 10:08 AM
You're right, Peter. It's a very similar thing with the name of german, swiss and austrian castles. Many of them include the term «-burg» in their original name (like Toggenburg, Kyburg, Lenzburg, Wartburg, Bechburg). The others, who don't include that term, are usually called «Burg X» (like Burg Katz, Burg Lichtenberg, Burg Windstein, Burg Steinsberg). To make it even more complicated, castles in or near medieval towms with no name of their own are often called «Schloss X» (like Schloss Thun, Schloss Sargans, Schloss Heidelberg, Schloss Murten, Schloss Vaduz). ------------------
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Lili
Senior Member
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posted 07-20-2001 06:13 AM
Merlin,
For some reason I was always under the impression that the German "Schloss" meant a post-15thC castle or more stately castle whereas Burg was pre renaissance. Don't know where I got this impression but could you possibly clarify this. Ta
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Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 07-20-2001 07:53 AM
Well, we already had a long discussion about those terms some time ago and came to no perfect solution. I'll give it one more try:BURG stands for a medieval construction with fotifications, connected feudal rights and areas, noble inhabitants and economic activities. Such structures were buildt in german-speaking lands until the late 15th century, but most of them between 1050 and 1300 AD. SCHLOSS can stand for almost every representative building, with or without any other functions then beeing a home of rich people. The term is also used, if a medieval BURG has lost most of its fortifications in later times. And in romantic writings or fairytales, what a historian would describe as a Burg is almost always called a Schloss. So things are not as simple as they should be. But if a building is called «Burg X», you can (in most cases) expect it to be and still look medieval. Merlin ------------------
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AJR
Senior Member
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posted 07-20-2001 08:11 AM
What about Schlossburg ? I believe it's on the River Wupper (near Wuppertal). |
Isidore
Member
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posted 07-20-2001 02:50 PM
Umm, I can say that Castle Hedingham is the name of the village, and thats why its got the silly name - It's Castle Hedingham's castle, you see. Did that make sense? Its lovely, by the way. |
Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 07-23-2001 06:45 AM
Never heared of Schlossburg, AJR. Sounds a bit silly - maybe it's real name is Schlossberg? Or if it's realy Schlossburg, then I bet it's late medieval or not medieval at all. Sounds more like a romatic hotel or something. But maybe I'm completely wrong in this... |
AJR
Senior Member
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posted 07-24-2001 05:16 AM
Have located my info on Schlossburg - It is one of the largest restored medieval castles in Western Germany. The castle owes its existence to the Counts of Berg, who also gave their name to the surrounding region, the Bergisches Land. From 1218, Count Engelbert II had a small fortress, built a century or so before, extended around the hall. His numerous offices called for a large and impressive castle as the seat of his court.
After Dusseldorf had been founded and become the regional capital, the castle was used only infrequently for short stays, as a hunting lodge or as a venue for court festivities. Around 1500, late Gothic superstructures with alcoves and turrets were added.
When the Imperial forces withdrew at the end of the Thirty Years War, the fortifications were destroyed. The former castle hall became the seat of ducal stewards and judges. Later again it was used as a blanket factory.
In 1848, the Prussian state had the roof of the hall torn down to serve as material for building the regional court of justice in Eberfield. Within a few decades Schloss Burg was a ruin.
From 1890 onwards, the "Schloss Burg on the Wupper Restoration Society" (Schlossbauverein an der Wupper) promoted the work of restoring all sections of the castle, starting with the hall and chapel. Although restoration followed the lines of the old ground plan and remaining walls, it is largely a new building inspired by the spirit of Rhineland castle romances. This article is taken from a booklet entitled Schloss Burg und Bergisches Museum by J. Christof Roselt. |
Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 07-24-2001 10:24 AM
I found infos about the castle at
http://www.schlossburg.de It's a special case. The medieval owners of the castle were, as you said, the counts of BERG. They gave their name to the whole region, and (so do I think) also to their castle, as it was very common. Later, the village nearby was named after its most outstanding building, the BURG of the counts of Berg. But the castle itself (in ruins) became just «the castle» (die BURG), and after its romantic-influenced resurrection was correctly called a SCHLOSS. So, what once may have been the «Burg Berg», became now the «Schloss Burg», because it's the SCHLOSS of the village named BURG. Strange, isn't it? |
Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 07-24-2001 10:24 AM
I found infos about the castle at
http://www.schlossburg.de It's a special case. The medieval owners of the castle were, as you said, the counts of BERG. They gave their name to the whole region, and (so do I think) also to their castle, as it was very common. Later, the village nearby was named after its most outstanding building, the BURG of the counts of Berg. But the castle itself (in ruins) became just «the castle» (die BURG), and after its romantic-influenced resurrection was correctly called a SCHLOSS. So, what once may have been the «Burg Berg», became now the «Schloss Burg», because it's the SCHLOSS of the village named BURG. Strange, isn't it? |
Radella
Senior Member
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posted 08-17-2001 06:21 PM
I am currently writing a piece about medieval times. It starts out in a castle (locksley) that I am always switching it around with castle. It doesn't matter: it is just how you are using the lanuage, what context. |
Moreyn
Member
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posted 05-26-2005 05:03 PM
Thank you for the history/description of Schlossburg-en-der-Wupper; it matches with our family records. One of the unfortunate consequences of the Thirty Years War was the relocation of the ducal heirs of the Berg/Burg line to the United States; the direct line of succession can be traced among the multitude of descendants here in North Carolina, with even more so in South Carolina. Of course, the name has been Anglicised to "Funderburk" instead of the original "von der Berg/Burg", but at least the Prussian government knew where to send the tax bills for the castle--until the Great War, that is!
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