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Author Topic:   To trespass or not trespass, that is the question
castleuk
unregistered
posted 11-12-2003 05:44 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Hi
Its been a quiet time on here of late, so here's a question on what to do when castle hunting.
To trespass or not trespass, that is the question.
You find your castle site, its been hard to locate and its a long way from home, you can see it or maybe not, its there, all you want to do is take your picture, have a little walk round, take a look, 10 to 20 minutes tops, has you need to move on to your next site BUT its on private ground, just in that field over there.
You can see the path that others have taken, the fence broken down or the hole in the hedge, what to do, do you follow or not.
I know what I would do but what about you.
Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle location website.

Gordon
unregistered
posted 11-13-2003 05:26 PM           Edit/Delete Message
There is no debate. You seek permission. In Scotland, technically there is no law of trespass, although you can be asked to leave or prosecuted for damage to property.
However, upsetting landowners through impatience could easily prohibit you and future visitors from being allowed access.
Access is normally only declined with good reason, usually because the eegit before you upset someone. It would surprise you how often farmers and the like will welcome someone with manners, particularly if you can allay their fears with a knowledgable comment or two about the site, and justify the seriousness of your interest.
Invest your 10 to 20 minutes in finding someone to authorise access, and you could have as long as you want without having to look over your shoulder, and may even have an informative guide to point out details that you might miss through being wary.
If you're too impatient to do that, invest in a zoom lens...... and get prosecuted for invasion of privacy!


[This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 11-13-2003).]

castleuk
unregistered
posted 11-14-2003 10:27 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Hi Gordon
Thanks for the reply, it was starting to look like everybody was sitting on the fence to take there view.
I know you should seek permission and technically there is no law of trespass but all castles at one time must have had public access, so us lower born could pay our taxes etc, a lot of sites still have that access which is great.
I have met lots of nice and very helpful farmers, who have gone out of there way to help but some people don't.
If you have a castle site on your land you know people are going to want to see it and if they can't, they will trespass, this happens all the time, I'm yet to go to a castle site that has not got a path going to it.
So if it's upsetting the landowner, why can't he or her, put up a notice saying private please keep out, this site will be open for charity on X days and charge a fee, like they do at Tickhill Castle. Most people would then keep out.
Yours Chris

duncan
Senior Member
posted 11-14-2003 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
Here in the US where my Castle is being built there are a myriad lot of Trespass laws and most are ignored which puts the property owner at high risk of being sued if some unauthorized person trips or hurts them selfs.
Insurance rates are high enough all ready.
Before we moved our site we had to employ armed guards at the gate to discourage those who Demanded entry and had absolutely no business there and failed to read the signs posted all over the site and perimeter.
Yes, people and laws are different in all parts of the world, but permission is important and should be asked no matter where a person is.
The one question I have had to ask far too many individuals "Do you own this property? Then why do you think you can come here with out permission?"

Yes some day maybe the grounds and castle will be open on certain days, and probably not with a fee, but by then necessary precautions will have been made to keep people safe from them selfs.

------------------
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Castle Duncan,
Castles and Medieval Discussion Forums

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And those who don't love us
May God turn their hearts,
And if He doesn't turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles,
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AJR
Senior Member
posted 11-15-2003 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJR     Edit/Delete Message
Whilst in Scotland, I found that where castle sites were owned by Scotsmen, Having asked for permission to go "on-site", it was granted every time. Where the castles were owned by Englishmen, I am ashamed to say that access was denied every time. I must admit that on one such occasion of denial, I just found a back entrance and went on in anyway, whilst on others, the telephoto lens came in handy.

Whilst in Wales, it was the same. Locals were happy to show me around, while the English invaders were reluctant.

In England - well it's been around 50 / 50.

My trick was, as I would walk down the pathway towards a castle, particularly inhabited ones, I would discreetly take a phot anyway. If the owner then denied permission for me to take photos, I already had one picture anyway, assuming it came out okay.

Sneaky ? Definitely !!!

However, in my experience politeness, and as Gordon says, imparting a few sentences of knowledge on the castle, nearly always wins through. One lady whose castle I wanted to photograph was very wary - thinking it would be published in a book, and not kept for my own private collection. I finally persuaded her to grant permission, on the basis that I would send her copies of the pictures afterwards. I duly did this, and received a lovely letter of thanks in return. Another owner, who showed me round his castle home personally, was impressed that I not only recognised the Buck's Brother print in his hallway, but was even able to give him the date it was printed. Doing ones homewor always pays off.

Sometimes there is an extra small price to pay - but it's worth it.

One pele tower owner in Northumberland sent me copies of the plans, and detailed history, after I wrote to him. There had been no-one around at the time of my visit, but I did my research, found out his name, and hey presto, I had more information than I had ever anticipated.

I'll admit to having trespassed on a few occasions (but I won't say where !!!), but in general, I ask permission. Mind you, one has to be prepared to listen to the owner chatting away, or in one case, I ended up falling in a foot of mud and cow's manure - and all in the name of castle hunting.

castleuk
unregistered
posted 11-15-2003 04:45 PM           Edit/Delete Message
As you known castle hunting is a passionate affair, which can get the better of you when your in the "field".
My veiw is, if there's no one around to ask and it could take me longer to find the owner than walk the castle, I just go for it. I do not do any harm, I watch where I walk, always check on any animals and keep my distance, I just can stop myself.
I started my website to use my castle pictures but now I go taking pictures for my site, which now means getting the best picture possible and if I can do that from the road side thats fine because I can then move on to my next site and why do some people who own castles love to grow conifer?? (so many castles, so little time).
When castle hunting its always "line in the sand time" do YOU cross it or not, my castle stopper will not but I will.
Want do you do!!!!!!!
Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle location website.

Peter
Member
posted 11-16-2003 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Coming in late again;
I try to ask permission if possible. Do not tend to go where it isn't.
Had one or two brushes with nasty dogs in the far past. Do not want to repeat those. You can argue /discuss (in the main) with humans.
Would you like someone coming in your garden taking pictures of flowers, no matter how innocent ?

castleuk
unregistered
posted 11-16-2003 03:23 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Come on Peter
If we all had a castle site in the back garden, you know we could not or would not turn a castle hunter away, this is my point, if you own a castle you know its bee's round the honey pot, its part of our past and I think we have a right to see it, if you don't like bee's sell the pot!
Chris

castleuk
unregistered
posted 11-16-2003 04:00 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Come on Peter
If we all had a castle site in the back garden, you know we could not or would not turn a castle hunter away, this is my point, if you own a castle you know its bee's round the honey pot, its part of our past and I think we have a right to see it, if you don't like bee's sell the pot!
Chris

Gordon
unregistered
posted 11-17-2003 06:13 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Yes indeed Chris, castles are a part of our heritage, but many are still on private property, which we must respect. If we paid for the upkeep of that particular piece of heritage, then your point might have some validity.
The Scottish Castle Owners association argue that HM Government should assist in the upkeep of these properties in order to preserve our common heritage. Many of the member owners have some business or other running from the site, whether as a hotel, or as a function venue. The government are not currently assisting them, though do impose restrictions on how they use the building, and can force them to maintain it if listed. The castle owners experience inordinately high maintainenance costs compared to other private dwellings and often reluctantly compromise their privacy to maintain their property. Like us they are enthusiasts who want the property to survive. But these are still private buildings, family homes, and where do you draw the line?
Someone who lives in say a penthouse flat in a converted Warehouse in Glasgow's Merchant City for instance, lives in a historic property, a listed buiding, converted to modern use. Owners have paid high prices for their property in order that they have their privacy respected, not so that every architecurally minded tourist or peeping tom can pop in and take pictures(if they don'tknow you, they won't know what you want). If they allowed that, prices would drop, and the buildings would not be maintained as they should.
Conversion of historic properties to modern use is a burden we have to bear if many of them are to survive. Many individuals who have bought land with a castle, have done so because the remoteness or inhibitions to visitors give them privacy. Sneak in once,get caught, and you blow it for everyone who has the patience and manners to do it properly.
That's when and why the NO TRESSPASSING signs go up and tempers fray.
I'm sure that most, like me have learned this through experience, since enthusiasm overcomes inhibitions until we are taught otherwise. I'm sure we have all had experience of the repercussions.
If you want to be taken seriously whether you are simply collecting data through interest, exhibiting on the web or publishing your data in any other form, then you fare best by developing a reputaion for being mannerly and honest.
Write to the owners first, explain why you are interested, and why their property is of such interest to you.
They might still say no because they fear that publication increases interest in their property, and they do not want to attract further visitors. You can get around this by explaining that one visit and subsequent publication of data may in fact quell the curiosity of many, and that you will emphasise the private nature of the estate with your data.
They might simply say no.... because they do have the right to do so.
If you develop an alternate reputation, then you will never be trusted and landowners will spread the word.
Your welcome will never be warm, and you will receive more and more less than polite refusals. Like us castle hunters, the castle owners often keep in touch, a fact that is often overlooked.
Whether a property is part of our cultural heritage or not, if it is privately owned, we must respect that. It is often that simple fact that allows it to survive, and if we compromise the rationalle of the purchaser in owning it, then what chance of anyone maintaining it if they cannot enjoy the privacy of their own home.
Quite simply put, your attitude could be the ruination of many a privately owned and maintained sites. As responsible people in a publicly viewed bulletin board, we should always be maintaining PC attitudes, particularly to the rights of those who have paid for property, and who maintain our heritage at their own expense. We cannot risk compromising that by encouraging anything other than a supportive,lawful and respectful approach to owners.
As I said in my first response, this should not be a matter for debate.

------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page


castleuk
unregistered
posted 11-20-2003 06:08 PM           Edit/Delete Message
90% of the castle sites I visit are ruins or earthworks, will little or no upkeep cost, it only needs a couple of sheep and the jobs done.
Thats why I say i don't do any harm, if I see somebody to ask I will and if there's a keep out sign, I'll only go to where I can get a picture.
I can understand Gordon's point about the owners of Scottish tower houses and I have no wish to trouble them, I just would like to tell them that one view point for a picture is all I want, conifer's cause trespass.
I have a few castle hotels on my site, I've emailed them, so that they could give me the correct rules on access to put on my site but only one has ever emailed back, for some reason me and castle owners don't seem to gel! and thats before I've visited there site!
Any way this is my last word on this, I've got a castle trip to plan, I'm off to view some more bastle houses, the working man's castle. Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle and bastle location website.

Merlin
Senior Member
posted 11-24-2003 08:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Merlin   Click Here to Email Merlin     Edit/Delete Message
Well, it needs a bit more than some sheep to upkeep a castle ruin if you don't want it to vanish completely over the years...

I'm in the lucky position that over 90 % of all swiss castles, ruins and earthworks are in public possession or on open land with no fence around them. If there is a sign about no trespassing (as I saw in 1 or 2 cases until now), then there would also be steel-doors and/or unfriendly dogs etc.

The other question is the one about signs like NO TRESPASSING, ITS TOO DANGEROUS TO VISIT THIS RUIN. I saw many of them in the Northern Alsace (France), were there are so many beautiful ruins of castles, that the state (which is the owner) has not the money to upkeep all of them. As they're mostly located on rocky hills, deep in the woods, miles away from the next houses, ... well, I'd always take the risk, go in there and even climb on the towers, no matter how rusty or rotten those old ladders are.

Marko
Senior Member
posted 11-24-2003 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marko   Click Here to Email Marko     Edit/Delete Message
To trespass or not, hmmm.

I wish I could say that I always follow the rules but to be honest; I don't always.

For me it mostly depends on the situation. If its a lonely ruin which is fenced off, I will try to gain entrance (within reason ofcourse; I'll try to squeeze through the fence but won't force anything). And when I do I always take care about not disturbing animals, plants or the ruin itself as to respect the site and leave it exactly as I found it.
When it's an inhabited castle or, for example, a ruin in someone's backyard, I will try to find someone on the site to ask permission. And when I find someone I politely tell who I am, ask permission to take one or two pictures and show some interest in the person and the site. If they say no, I'll just take my loss and leave. Or if I can't find anyone I'll leave also. But my experience is that most of them will allow you to take some pics.

In most cases its just too hard to find someone to ask permission from by mail or phone before visiting the site in person.

Also I think that because castles are special structures the owners should be aware that there should be more than average interest in their property and that they could prevent trespassing by creating a opportunity for the interested such as a yearly day to open their property to the public or a spot from which their property can be viewed from outside their land.

And I agree with Merlin; I'll take my own chances on those rusty old ladders ;-)

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"But round about the castle there began to grow a hedge of thorns, which every year became higher...."
Visit my website at http://www.castles.nl/

ipflo
Moderator
posted 11-24-2003 05:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ipflo   Click Here to Email ipflo     Edit/Delete Message
hmmmm, it is difficult question

i have to side with marko

I wish I could say that I always follow the rules but to be honest: I don't always.

Sometimes the passion to see that castle or ruin, is just to great and I trespass within 'reason', I have to admit

castleuk
unregistered
posted 12-02-2003 04:42 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Hi
I'm back from my bastle hunt and I bagged one or two nice castles has well.
I've got to say I did trespass a bit but I also did ask permission or just took my picture from the fence, a bit of a mixed bag and I don't think I upset anyone.
I went to Fatlips Castle nr Jedburgh, its on a very high cliff and can be seen for miles, at the bottom there is a path/road going to the cliff face its well used, lots of rubbish around, with half a gate left, want do you do, its half miles to a farm but is it on there land? and its too good to miss, so like all the rest I followed the path and boy what a tower.
At Carlington Castle nr Rothbury, the site is at the back of the farm, so I ask the owner if I could view, He told me to drive to the back and have a good look round and was very informative about the site, coming for a chat when he had finish for the day.
At Low Leam Bastle nr Otterburn, again on a farm, I couldn't spot the bastle, so on asking a farm lad, it was not only pointed out, i was taken through the bastle to see the other and best side, with the gable end door and the steps going up to the first floor door.
So what to say, it I can ask I will, your better off doing so but if there no one around and it there's no harm done, I will still visit the site.
Chris www.castleuk.net
The castle and bastle location website

Mistress of All Evil
Member
posted 12-07-2003 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mistress of All Evil     Edit/Delete Message
Gordon! Long time no see. Yes, well I'm so happy to be returning to your site. You used to yell at me all the time about being bosy or something on your site. Yes, well I remember recieving very little help (from other than the modetors*) so I got a new name and ta-da hope to help the others out.

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~~~~MISTRESS~~~~
~~~~~OF~~~~~
~~~ALL~~~
~EVIL~

All times are PT (US)

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