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Author
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Topic: boiling oil
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Glaive203
Senior Member
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posted 10-26-2000 06:07 AM
 
Having just watched braveheart I saw boiing oil being used at the siege of york;but in the real MA boiling oil was usually a vegetable oil not petrol and boiling water was used in england not boiling oil.My questions are does anyone know actual english sieges where boiling oil instead of water was used? And how common was the use of oiling water instead of oil in spain,italy and southern france? |
wurdsmiff
unregistered
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posted 10-28-2000 03:36 AM
Braveheart is of course a work of fiction, based on a work by Blind Harry written some two hundred years after the death of Wallace.
Harry's work also contained much fictitious material, exageration and generalisation with the aim of emphasising the moral victory of Wallace, his personal hero. It also contains some fact. Harry made a living as a minstrel, and the more dramatic and heroic the tale, the greater the audience response, and so the greater his reward.
Harry is responsible for claiming that Wallace beseiged York, and that the defenders used burning faggots and scalding pitch (not oil) in the defence of the town. In fact although Harry apparently had some military interest, Wallace threatened Durham though never beseiged it. The claim that he reached York, a cosiderable distance south and further into English territory, and of far greater importance, is typical of how he rewrote events to suit his purpose.
Serious historians give some credit to Harry's military knowledge, and so details of how a seige would be perpetrated or defended are given some credibility, he is however given as little credit as a work of reference, as we would now give the film producers of Hollywood or others with similarily vivid imaginations. ------------------
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Glaive203
Senior Member
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posted 10-28-2000 10:35 PM
Thanks for the reply Gordon,naturally I know that bundles of burning faggots were dropped on besiegers,along with boiling water,hot pitch,stones and thrown archgays(never shown in movies;but much more common than arrows during the actual scaling of the walls).Braveheart is obviously an alternate history-for instance Prince Edward(edwardII) was the first prince of wales;but the "she wolf of france"was never princess of wales(she married him after longshanks was dead and he was already king,a face I'm sure you know;but other readers might not).Braveheart is full of historical and antiquilogical errors;but still was a fine remake of Sparacus! |
wurdsmiff
unregistered
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posted 10-29-2000 03:27 AM
Actually, Edward of Caernarvon (2nd of England) was not the first Prince of Wales, though he was the first in the tradition of heirs to the English throne to hold the title.
I'm sure our Welsh friends would be most annoyed to have you ignore the fact that Llewelyn ap Gruyffydd had previously held that honour, prior to it being granted to Edward of Caernarvon.
Again Harry is responsible for inventing the visit of 'the English Queen' to Wallace at York, though as you have stated, Isabella the Fair was not yet Queen nor Princess of Wales (she was born in 1296) being only 1 year old when Wallace invaded the North of England. I'm sure there are similarities with Spartacus, however, Randall Wallace produced a screenplay pretty close to the script of Harry's Wallace, and as with Harry, it is the moral victory and the hero-worship which is important, rather than historical fact-where was the bridge in Bravehearts version of the Battle of Stirling Bridge?
Rather than saying that Braveheart was a re-make of Spartacus, I'd say Gibsons later film Patriot was a re-run of Braveheart.------------------
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Glaive203
Senior Member
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posted 10-30-2000 03:50 AM
Gordon,good points over all;except for the patriot remark.Patriot is the same sort of story;but is much better handled than braveheart. Mark |
duncan
Senior Member
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posted 10-30-2000 04:46 AM
I agree Gordon, and i beleave that Gibsons staff as well as many critics has said that also. |
wurdsmiff
unregistered
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posted 10-30-2000 01:40 PM
Well practise makes perfect, maybe if he uses the plot for a third time, it'll improve again.------------------
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 11-16-2000 04:37 PM
I've frequently asked people to come up with any historical reference to boiling oil being used in English sieges and no one has every be able to supply one, I've never come across any reference in my own reading, except with regard to the siege of Malta by the Turks (which ain't in England). I personal doubt that boiling water was used, since the main point of pouring water was dowse fire set by the besieging forces, and heating water is an expensive buisness. Boiling pitch may have been used as a fire bomb launced from catapults within a castle to set fire to besiegers seige engines but pouring boiling pitch onto the heads of beseigers attacking a castle gate (where most attacks would be directed) would merely have the effect of setting fire to the castle gates (ditto for burning faggots). A much more likely substance to be used in this way would be quicklime, which is caustic and burns skin but does little damage to stone walls and wooden gates and which most castle would have a supply fairly readily available since it was stored ready to make morter for routine maintance and repairs.------------------
And as I rode by Dalton-Hall Beneath the turrets high, A maiden on the castle-wall Was singing merrily: The Outlaw by Sir Walter Scott
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Glaive203
Senior Member
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posted 11-18-2000 11:55 PM
boiling water is mentioned asbeing used by geoffrey of monmouth in his history of the kings of britain;even though this source is mainly fable;I assume that a detail like that is true. |
wurdsmiff
unregistered
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posted 11-19-2000 04:32 AM
Philip, out of interest, which reference have you been reading on the Siege of Malta?
Incidently, I'll be back over there for a fortnight at New Year, so I'll be unavailable for a while.------------------
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 11-19-2000 08:59 AM
I didn't give a reference cos the book doesn't really deserve one. The text is Sieges by Eversley Belfield which only gives references to secondard texts from which I suppose the author has purloined the references to original reports of the seige.Have a nice holiday. ------------------
And as I rode by Dalton-Hall Beneath the turrets high, A maiden on the castle-wall Was singing merrily: The Outlaw by Sir Walter Scott
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wurdsmiff
unregistered
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posted 11-19-2000 10:18 AM
I'm sure I will, though it's a few weeks away yet. I love the place as you know, this is visit number 8, or is it 9...?
Try 'The Great Siege' or 'The Knights of Malta'(ISBN 99909 0 019 1) by Joseph Attard, PEG Publishing. Not sure about availability here, though apparently they were at one time.
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