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Author	Topic: scottish dungeons
Glaive203 Senior Member	posted 11-11-2000 05:43 AM When the scots built dungeons did they mainly follow the french custom of placing them near the gate to reinforce it or the english custom of placing them well away from the gate and perhaps throwing a second wall between them and the gate or throwing a chemise around them? Also did the scots import french limestone for the corners of the square ones? Lastly what were the main building methods and materials-rubble vs ashlar,free stone vs stone? Ok lastly again were there any brick dungeons and please don't talk about peels?
Glaive203 Senior Member	posted 11-11-2000 05:48 AM ps. Duncan you're right-I'm more American than apple pie! My ancestors were here before johnny appleseed and two of them fought to kick the lime menace back to britain,one dying in the struggle-sounds like mel's patriot to me. I've never actually heard an American call a pike either a "northern pike" or a "pike" in the mid-west they're just "northerns".
duncan Senior Member	posted 11-11-2000 10:09 AM Ooop's, payed me a complement by mistake. I've never fished for pike. Tuna being the largest and gar haveing the most teeth. When i return to Scotland i have plans to go try my luck.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 11-11-2000 02:41 PM Designs varied, and then were varied again according to the needs of the time as the castles were remodelled and rebuilt. The most common feature of dungeon placement occurs in the tower houses which are so characteristic of Scotland,with the bottle dungeon, and again the position of these varied, although they did tend to be at ground floor level or below, and built within one of the exterior walls. as for importing limestone from France, why would we have had to do that? Scotland has a plentiful supply of a variety of stones, and again their use varied according to availability and the wealth of the builder. If a readily quarriable stone was available, and the payment available to have it cut then ashlar was used. Rubble was also common. The use of freestone was again dependant on availability. Good sandstone was readily available in most of the lowlands, usually in a variety of shades of red,(almost blood red in the case of Melgund) but also less commonly in yellow. Granite was readily available in the north east, hence the by name of Aberdeen of 'the granite city'. French masons were available to work on and influence some of the Royal castles, particularily in the 15th-16th centuries, hence the renaissance style of the Royal Castle at Stirling. Yes, thanks for confirming I was right about you being American, but I haven't changed my name to Duncan! ------------------ Demeure par la verite Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon. [This message has been edited by wurdsmiff (edited 11-11-2000).]
Glaive203 Senior Member	posted 11-11-2000 05:50 PM Sorry Gordon-my brain has bee broken for the last 3 days! By dungeon I don't mean the hollywood type;but what is mis-called keep after the tudor custom.I always use middle english terms rather than modern ones-ask me what a molman,cottar,husbond,bordar or villein is and I know what you're talking about;but talk about small holders or kidney "daggers" and I have no idea!
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 11-12-2000 04:03 AM You mean a donjon, or keep. Again as I say, designs varied, and were remodelled as time passed. Really the only great keep still referred to as a donjon in Scotland is at Bothwell, and it had much french influence, being very much like the donjon at Coucy. Bothwell was never completed to it's originaal plan, the wars of Independance intervening during construction, however it does have it's own dry moat and other defences, and is set someway back from the intended main entrance of the castle though as an integral part of the perimeter. alternately at Rothesay, the keep doubles as a gatehouse, although this was a later edition to a circular enceinte. It is difficult to generalize on the style of these earlier Scottish Castles, since the makority were destroyed in the aftermath of the Wars of Independance- a deliberate policy of Robert the Bruce, in order that an invading army could not garrison them against the Scots. Of the Royal castles, only Berwick and Dumbarton survived, although he did build a castle in the west highlands at Tarbet, defence against attack from the isles, and not a likely invasion route from England. Of those that survived, few remain intact, the majority having been remodelled with scant traces of the original. Bothwell has the best preserved 13th century portions, although the bulk of what now stands was built in the following centuries to an altered plan. of the donjon, about half survived, though was rebuilt to an alternate plan, and just adjacent was a prison tower. The remainder is 14th and 15th century work. ------------------ Demeure par la verite Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.
Glaive203 Senior Member	posted 11-12-2000 05:27 AM no gordon I mean dungeon that's the proper middle english word for great tower.The french donjon=dungeon in ME,the custom of calling them keeps originated during the tudor period and was never used in the MA.Dungeons,which were archaic buildings were converted into prisons leading to the confusion of the terms.I'm following the modern medievalist custom of calling things by their proper "contemporary" names.
duncan Senior Member	posted 11-12-2000 06:54 AM You've spoke of useing "modern medievalist customs of useing contemporery terms" Not only being a mouth full, but isn't that a paradoxical statement? Langauages being what they are, what does it matter if a rose is called by another name as long as its understood. After all a duck is still a duck no matter what swamp hes in.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 11-12-2000 03:49 PM And a pike is still a pike, (unless it's a muskie)! I prefer to use modern terminology to save confusion amongst other readers, and terminology varies across the world, even regionally, as well as across time. In Scotland a dungeon is a prison, a donjon a term for the keep of a large early castle, and a keep can be a free standing tower of the 14th century (a style typical over here of that era)- or the main tower of a castle. Dungeon is an English term corrupted from the French as you say, and we lowland Scots shared our language with those south of the border though not our dialect. We never had a Tudor Monarch despite their efforts(although James 4th married the sister of one), and therefore Tudor terms do not apply unless we are talking Tudor buildings! Who speaks middle English nowadays? The Scots had their own dialect as I said, and the nobles tended to speak in French and have records written in Latin. Middle English terms would have been applicable in Middle England and in areas under their domain, but that did not include the rest of the castle building world or Scotland,and certainly not in the period I have been discussing with you. Incidentally, limey refers only to the English, those who fought against your ancestors came from all over the UK. The point is that although there are certainly medievalist members in Castle Quest, we have to cater for all readers, and avoid confusion. Others will read these postings as reference - outwith the contributors. Back to the subject - One point I omitted in my previous post, as portrayed in Braveheart, many Scots nobles before the Bruce era did owe dual allegiance to both the Thrones of Scotland and England, since many owned lands in both countries. There was undoubtedly therefore also an English flavour to larger castle building here at that time, since the builders were building in both countries, and that includes the invading armies as they did in Wales, though to lesser extent and without the same success. However, Bruce demanded after Bannockburn,that no such dual allegiance be tolerated, and so each had the choice, stay as a Scot and surrender your English proerties, or go south and surrender your Scots. ------------------ Demeure par la verite Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.
Glaive203 Senior Member	posted 11-12-2000 10:50 PM Ah,Duncan that's just it! language does change and is very often misused.Because words have multiple meanings one can only really communicate and discuss a subject if there are some ground rules for their meaning.To give a couple of examples Torch to the modern english means a flashlight(in American english) and is misapplied to the firebrands(which were always called that by those who used them);but to medievalists "torch" means what it meant to those that used them.Another example:"short sword" this is used every inexactly by moderns for any short combat blade which is longer than a dagger or knife(but how much longer?)in fact its so inexact that it means nothing,and weapons that are clearly daggers and knives are often miscalled "short swords".While the term "short sword" means in ME the two edged sword worn on a squires or knights left hip,and contrasted with the dagger on his right or the "long sword" sheathed on his saddle(these are the traditional "three points of arms"used in the 14th-15th cen. in england and other romance countries.Gordon,I know that limey means enlish,but the welsh,irish and scots were just slaves of the english master race like indian sepoys! No offense intented,being of english,scottish,irish,polish and russian blood myself.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 11-13-2000 09:28 AM Slaves? Master Race? No offence intended? - many would find that hard to ignore. I think you really should be a little more careful with your words. I have a thick skin, but remember my point regarding other readers, your own language is portraying you in an unsavoury light, in addition to being grossly historically inaccurate. ------------------ Demeure par la verite Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon. [This message has been edited by wurdsmiff (edited 11-13-2000).]
Merlin Senior Member	posted 11-14-2000 03:06 AM I know nothing of such a 'modern medievalist custom'. The term 'Donjon' is very well established in the castle-literature and I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be correct in every historical sense. Even for Switzerland, where we don't have many Donjons, I can accept the definition given by Gordon. (The best swiss example beeing Santa Maria in Calanca) http://www.pgi.ch/INFO/TorreStaMaria.html It doesn't make much sense to me to change terms that are exactly defined and widely accepted (at least in Europe). And it's the first time I've ever heard of things like a "master race" for medieval times. Glaive203, you'd better forget about that very quickly... Merlin [This message has been edited by Merlin (edited 11-14-2000).]
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 11-16-2000 05:39 PM Just to add my bit. Many English castle inventories and discriptions are written in Latin, are often very unclear and if they do refer to a great tower call it a magna turris. Some of the authories on castles use the term 'Great Tower' rather than Keep or Donjon, but others, such as Sidney Toy or R Allen Brown are happy to use Keep and or Donjon in association with accurate discriptions and definitions. I know of no published writer on English castles who uses the term 'dungeon' to mean anything other than a prison cell (although they almost alway explain its derivation from the term 'Donjon'.) My personal preference is for Great Tower except for Shell Keeps which are not well described as towers. There may, or may not be, a "modern medievalist custom of calling things by their proper "contemporary" names." (I guess that some medievalist do and some don't) but I can't believe that an serious academic would be so naif as to expect people to not assume that dungeon refered to a prison cell considering this is it's current modern meaning (and the context of your original question and the lack of pointers to your intended meaning.) ------------------ And as I rode by Dalton-Hall Beneath the turrets high, A maiden on the castle-wall Was singing merrily: The Outlaw by Sir Walter Scott http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/index.html
Glaive203 Senior Member	posted 11-19-2000 12:08 AM sorry for having offended any celt.My comments about slave races referred only to the 18th cen.a period in which I'm incompetent.If you brits tell me that the relations of celtic brits were not the same as hindustanies to england I'll accept your word.I've always assumed that the irish,welsh,and scots were regarded as inferiors and wanted their independence during this period and were not the equals of or loyal subjects of the english.
Glaive203 Senior Member	posted 11-19-2000 12:14 AM back to the subject-sort of! its true that the word keep is normally used by castle scholars;but even the word "donjon" in used in two ways-some correctly use it to mean any magna turris;but others use it to mean only round keeps.PS.I love you guys and am not a nationalist or racist-how could I be a nationalist as an american I'm of very mixed nationality and am as much celtic as english.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 11-19-2000 04:13 AM Apology accepted, though the master race comment has very much wider connotations, and you may have offended almost every country affected by WW2! Your point about the dual use of donjon is excactly why we require to use the most widely accepted modern terminology. In 1707 the Scots Parliament voted itself into a union with the English Parliament, though all the Celtic nations of the UK retained a very strong sense of their own identity. Whilst the politics surrounding the Act of Union were corrupt, and there was widespread opposition to it, it is difficult to deny that all parts of the UK benefited greatly from the deed. It could be argued that it was from the increased strength of the UK that it was possible to build on the foundations of the British Empire, and the accumulation of wealth and trade that followed.
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 11-19-2000 09:14 AM Pedantry gets the better of me. The phrase how could I be a nationalist as an american has a internal cognative dissonance. As for Racism I would recommend reading Stephan Jay Gould's The Mismeasuremant of Man. I particularly like his example of how a 19th US census was distorted to prove Racist views such that there where more mad black people in one town than black people in total (It being assumed that all blacks were insane and all insane people were black). Absolutely nothing to do with castles but a fine example of some of the problems of using historical sources and of making assumptions. ------------------ And as I rode by Dalton-Hall Beneath the turrets high, A maiden on the castle-wall Was singing merrily: The Outlaw by Sir Walter Scott http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/index.html
Merlin Senior Member	posted 11-24-2000 07:23 AM I've just found a very good book on the topic of Keep/Donjon: �Wolfgang BLEYL. Der Donjon: Eine bautechnische Typologie des verteidigungsf�higen Wohnturmes. 3rd Edition. K�ln 1980. Although the book's written in german, there are more then 100 pages of very detailed illustrations of donjons from every corner of the medieval world. It's the best and most complete study about these buildings I've seen so far...
duncan Senior Member	posted 11-24-2000 07:51 AM When you can, would you add the books to the BOOK NOOK, that will help in expanding the reference library.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 11-24-2000 08:15 AM It would certainly be the first non-english reference added to the Book Nook, something I'm sure more than a few members would appreciate. You could open your own mailing if you like and add to it as you find time, as I have for Scottish books. I'm sure it will prove a useful resource for German speakers. ------------------ Demeure par la verite Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.
Merlin Senior Member	posted 11-24-2000 08:27 AM Good idea, Gordon. I'll start such a thing as soon as possible.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 11-24-2000 11:20 AM Excellent!! ------------------ Demeure par la verite Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.