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Author Topic:   moats and mining
Shelly
Senior Member
posted 12-15-2000 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shelly   Click Here to Email Shelly     Edit/Delete Message
O.K. this may seem to be a silly question, but could a water filled moat prevent mining underneath a wall alltogether or could attackers dig deep enough to bypass the moat without the pressure from the water collapsing the mine? I could find nothing on the web and I am thinking of writing a fictional book, but I want it to be as accurate as possible.

[This message has been edited by Shelly (edited 12-15-2000).]

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 12-15-2000 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
In short, unlikely.
Most moats were constructed in naturally waterlogged areas such as marshes/swamps, the soil simply being dug away to expose the underlying water table(thus forming the moat). Any mining attempted in the area would also flood with water.
Under certain conditions mining may be possible, however.
If the moat is filled with water from a nearby source such as a stream or the ocean and the basin is dug into heavy clay or non-porous stone, reducing seepage, then this would allow mining underneath, but I don't know if these conditions are met in any real castle.
There are seaside castles with moats cut from the rock and filled with seawater in existence, but the stone may be too porous to allow mining.
In the case of moats, filling them in to attack the wall seems to have been the most popular option.

Erik

[This message has been edited by Erik Schmidt (edited 12-15-2000).]

Glaive203
Senior Member
posted 12-16-2000 06:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaive203     Edit/Delete Message
water filled moats could be drained to allow mining.Medieval engineering was capable of both draining swamps and diverting rivers an most moats were simply ditches which being lower than the surrounding land would retain a lot of water if they were on clayey soil rather than sandy or loamy soil.

Peter
Member
posted 12-16-2000 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
I think we can go back even further, the Romans let nothing stop the taking of a city, never mind a castle. Their ramps & infill techniques were brilliant.
We should also recall Alexander's march across the middle east, India etc.
Now that guy really did know how to storm a city !

Philip Davis
unregistered
posted 12-16-2000 03:58 PM           Edit/Delete Message
I'd support what Glaive203 says. The dam which contains the water in many castle moats is vunerable to being breached and the moats draining fairly quickly. This was recognised and many castle include the dam in the defences of the castle (Notably Caerphilly and Kenilworth) and others have the dam strongly overlooked and protected by nearby towers (White Castle in Gwent is a fine example). It's worth also noting that many castles had a ditch around them which, although generally dry, could fill with water. Some castles actually made use of the castle ditch has a water supply. Carreg Cennen, built on the top of a hill, had a clay lined, stone cut ditch used for water supply (no well being able to get down to the water table). Finally warfare, including castle besieging, was generally a summer affair so that water tables would have been lower so that mining may have been possible in dry summer months in places that usually would have be to wet to mine.

It is entirely feasable that someone could have mined under the water filled ditch at Cerrag Cennen, but mining through stone, whilst not unknown, is difficult and relatively rare. Actually mining, although the ultimate besiegers weapon, was difficult in all circumstances, miners are a small skilled group who cost money (and your average mercenary medieval solider isn't going to dig a mine) and few armies could afford them.

------------------
And as I rode by Dalton-Hall Beneath the turrets high, A maiden on the castle-wall Was singing merrily: The Outlaw by Sir Walter Scott
http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/index.html


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