UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
  Castle Quest
  Castles In General & Medieval History
  Dungeons

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Dungeons
Sedusa
Member
posted 06-04-2001 12:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sedusa   Click Here to Email Sedusa     Edit/Delete Message
I have been trying to do some extensive research on dungeons in "any" castle. There is not a picture to be found that dungeons even exsisted. Any lead as to where I may find some pics of the dungeons that has the chains hanging from the ceiling, or is that too many movies? At any rate, let me thank who ever in advance. Sedusa

Peter
Member
posted 06-04-2001 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Down yer go !
Dungeons .. many were just termed 'prison'. And as they were often in the base of a tower, access only through a trapdoor, with no light (much of the time). Chains weren't really needed. Once in there you certainly weren't going anywhere.
The idea of chains etc. has no doubt come from larger prisons situated in cellers, or lower rooms of a Keep. Better light & easier access was needed just for the goaler, and his friend with the red hot pincers. Many prisons were in towers.
To be sent to the Tower of London, meant just that. I seem to recall someone (Civil War ?) that tried to escape, the sheets snapped and so did his neck.
I know Warick castle now boasts a dungeon, complete with genuine chains. Or so the sign says. Pembroke castle has its 'Wogan', which is called a dungeon. But which I believe was a storage area loaded from the river.
Pontefract, has a celler cut into the sandstone of the middle-ward (I've been down this one). Here prisoners of the Civil War were kept. Much carving in the soft rock tells of their stay. Once again, mere tunnels in the stone .. no need for chains.
In Europe there are some pretty gruesome examples though. I can think of Castel Sant Angelo (Rome), where one prison measures about 5' deep, 5' high, and 7' long; with an iron grill to the front. On view at all times.
If no one comes up with a pic\site for you I'll see what I can find.

Gordon
unregistered
posted 06-04-2001 02:34 PM           Edit/Delete Message
I tend to agree with Peter,any of the old prisons were such places that you just were not going to get out of. The bottle dungeon of so many Scottish keeps is a good example why, a very narrow opening into a wider room, this opening being in the roof, and you were 'dropped in', and in many cases forgotten about.
Even the prisons of the larger castles tended to be a very small room, with extremely limited access and little light. The term dungeon, as has been pointed out in previous mails, is a corruption of the French donjon, their term for the keep. It was here, as in the Tower of London, that more illustrious prisoners were kept in comparitive comfort, and kept well guarded.
The only 'movie friendly' prisons with chains etc that I can think of tend to come from later eras, or perhaps from times such as the Spanish Inquisition, when torture and imprisonment of large numbers of prisoners were called for. There is a renovated dungeon in Mdina, Malta from this period, complete with waxwork style scenes which appeal to those of gruesome taste.
It's worth mentioning that I've come across a few large vaulted chambers which were originally storage areas which have been named as dungeons because at some point they've been used as a gaols for prisoners during the likes of the Napoleonic Wars, but then these chambers were not truly dungeons.

------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 06-04-2001 09:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
The chains hanging from the ceiling idea I think is a result of too many movies.
The document/archive room of many castles often had shelves suspended from the ceiling to keep the documents safe from rats and mice.
You must remember that in the middle ages there wasn't a system of courts, prisons and prisoners as we have today. Castles were the homes of feudal lords who in many cases governed, often brutally, over peasants. Most petty crimes would have been dealt with by the local village, the lord only concerning himself with crimes that were committed against himself or his property, such as illegal hunting. In such cases it is unlikely that the lord would opt to incarcerate, at his expense, local peasants. He may have found it easier to cut off the offenders hand or head, which would also be more likely to deter others, or more profitably, to "fine" the offender.

Prisoners of high rank are often mentioned in history, but as Gordon pointed out, these prisoners were treated well.
Prisoners taken in battle were taken mostly for ransom and held for short periods. Low ranking prisoners not ransomed quickly were usually let go or killed.
Croniclers often mention bands of soldiers pillaging in friendly territory, before, after or between battles, against the wishes of their employer. They do not seem to have been imprisoned for their actions, but would either be sent off to fight as quickly as possible or have an army sent against them to cut them down.

The dungeons of Hollywood, large complexes of prison cells with a large torture room of torture implements and chains on walls, I don't think existed in early middle ages Europe.
Early on, many rooms used as prisons were not intended for this and were used for varying purposes throughout the castle's life.
I know of a few castles with prison rooms and a few now have torture chambers displayed. The castle at Ferrara in Italy has a complex of rooms underground, some specifically built as prisons. The castle of Bodrum(I think) in Turkey has a torture chamber, but it seems to be a fake.
The castle of Chillon in Switzerland has a large vaulted room in which prisoners were chained to the columns, but it is unlikely to have been built for this purpose.
The castle of Grandson has a bottle type prison, such as Gordon and Peter mention, in a tower.

I hope my ravings do not contradict fact, as they are based on opinion extrapolated from what I have read and seen so far on the matter.

Erik

Gordon
unregistered
posted 06-05-2001 01:12 PM           Edit/Delete Message
The dungeon scenes in the film 'Gladiator' were filmed in Fort St Elmo, Valletta, Malta. This was used to imprison Frenchmen after Nelson's capture of the islands.
Be warned though, quite a few props were added for the filming. Sadly it was whilst filming Gladiator on the island that Oliver Reed died. His last scenes were filmed in the fort.

------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page

Peter
Member
posted 06-05-2001 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Mind you there are famous castles as prisons.
Try and think of one !
Is it Chateau d'If off the southern French coast ? That had a very nasty reputation.
Of course, our own Lancaster Castle, still a Courtroom I think. I have visited the Castle at Fossano in Piemonte (think I posted a pic), where the Germans starved to death hundreds of Italian prisoners.
Not a castle .. but there is a huge Fort in Boston Bay that was turned into a prison. Srory connected with that, must dig it out .. oops! No pun intended.

Dino Palloni
Member
posted 07-30-2001 02:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dino Palloni   Click Here to Email Dino Palloni     Edit/Delete Message
In the castle Montechiarugolo, near Parma, You can see a couple of prison cells set in the thickness of a curtain wall. The castle was built in the first half of the XV century.

In many Italian and French castles it is easy to recongnise prison cells by the graffiti left by prisoners, who had anything other to do. I have many slides of them and someone is very nice.

------------------

Peter
Member
posted 07-30-2001 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Dino,
I am visiting Piemonte quest'anno, Orta San Giulio, Lago d'Orta.
Conosce molti castelli vicino il Lago ?
Please place some of your pictures on the web-site.
Ciao Peter

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 07-30-2001 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Interesting that Sedusa hasn't posted again.

Dino, you reminded me that the Fort St'Andre (Villeneuve Les Avignon) has graffiti from prisoners in one of it's main gate towers.

Peter, Orta is a great place! I stopped by there in '97. I didn't have time to search out castles on this trip and I was heading for Valle d'Aosta which I know has quite a few within a small area.
My map doesn't show any in the Orta area, but shows 5 in the Aosta vally, of which I have only visited Verres. The pics of Fenis castle look great.
I would recommend going to Valle d'Aosta if you can while in the area. How long are you going for?

Erik

Isidore
Member
posted 08-05-2001 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Isidore   Click Here to Email Isidore     Edit/Delete Message
A lot of Castles were used later on in their history as prisons - possibly where this mix up happens. Colchester does have an oubliette - but I think that does not date from the date it was first built.

Peter
Member
posted 08-05-2001 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Well, we get there in the end.
A couple of weeks Eric.
But have a healthy list of sites now. Not over doin' the web bashing too much to find them.
We are visiting Asti as well for a few days. There is now a web site of Castelli open in the three main areas.
Will post that after this.

All times are PT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Castles on the Web

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.40
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 1999.



Castles on the WebHome
Castles on the WebIntroduction
Castles on the WebCastle Quest
Castles on the WebSite of the Day
Castles on the WebCastle Tours
Castles on the WebCastle Collections
Castles on the WebNew Sites
Castles on the WebPopular Sites
Castles on the WebPhoto Archive
Castles on the WebMiscellaneous
Castles on the WebCastles for Kids
Castles on the WebCastle Glossary
Castles on the WebPalaces & Homes
Castles on the WebMedieval Studies
Castles on the WebAccommodations
Castles on the WebTop Rated
Castles on the WebCastle Postcards
Castles on the WebHeraldry Links
Castles on the WebMyths & Legends
Castles on the WebOrganizations
Castles on the WebCastle Books
Castles on the WebAbbeys & Churches
Castles on the WebWeapons/Supplies
Castles on the WebRandom Site
Castles on the WebAdd A Castle Site
Castles on the WebAcknowledgements
Castles on the WebSearch Options
Castles on the WebPlease Help Us!
Castles on the WebPlease Link To Us
Castles on the WebContact Us

Castles on the Web Copyright 1995- | Privacy Policy