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Author Topic:   Food.
posted 04-26-2002 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Food .. like languages, is it becoming to diffused ?
There have been instances in the last year of French Chefs taking ideas from U.K. Chefs.
Mainly because they serve up the same type of dish year after year. And certain sections of the French public are tired of it.

Whilst in the U.K. because of the past flack they have taken (much of it justified), U.K. Chefs have really gone to town with the various cooking cultures in the these hallowed Isles.
Does it really matter how a food is classed ? As long as we enjoy it.
I mean, a Pizza is a Pizza .. isn't it !

Senior Member
posted 04-26-2002 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
I would have agreed with you on the Pizza thing until I saw a vegetarian type with artichokes, or cheese less with anchovies and sea weed, I'm not kidding!
I shouldn't talk because i like a Mexican Pizza every now and again. Just NO eggs please!!!!
What I was surprised about was the lack of Fish and round chips business's in the UK and East Indian food is close to being the national dish.
Oh and one last thing, Not all Americans want American food when abroad, some of us prefer the food of the country we are in to what is served every day at home in most restaurants. Some of us don't eat Mc D*******'s either.
I think real food is one of the main reasons why we valued the taverns so much while there.... well........ that and of course the ale's and wines.

Megan and Ralph
Castle Duncan
The Construction Site

"Till Necessitie and Not
Fill Decore"

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 04-26-2002 08:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
What a delicious topic!
Firstly, let me give you an idea of my culinary 'background'. I have lived in Australia for most of my life, but luckily am not of English stock, but the son of a Danish father and Swiss-Italian mother, so I don't suffer from the culinary wasteland that is the average Australian kitchen.
I spent my childhood growing up in Denmark and have spent a considerable time in Switzerland and Italy with relatives, as well as travelling and visiting friends in various countries in Southern and Central Europe and the Middle East.
I prefer cooking in the Italian and Middle Eastern styles, mostly because I have to avoid too much dairy products, so French and Swiss cooking has to take a back seat. The Asian flavours and styles are something I haven't learnt to do well yet, and prefer to let a native of the areas do it for me. We have a Thai resturant in town which actually uses a Thai chef who cooks only to original recipes using authentic ingredients. MMmmmmm. Very, very goooood!
I don't often eat takeaway(takeout) and stay totally clear of the American style places.

To your point about the diffusion of food Peter. There are several things happening to food at the moment in this regard.

Firstly, food styles and ingredients are being spread around the world, which I think is a good thing. I would hate to have suffered the diet of the average European before the food from the new world was available.
In this country we have a multitude of well represented cultures who have generated a demand for their traditional food ingredients, of superior quality and freshness to that demanded by the average Australian of English stock.
I couldn't live here if that wasn't the case.

Secondly, there is the combining of food styles, flavours and ingredients in a way never before tried. I think this is also a good thing. I am happy to see new ingredients and combinations tried on traditional dishes, as long as the spirit of good food is adhered to, that is; freshness, quality, health and flavour. I deplore the use of chemical additives.
The only reason a pizza was limited to a certain number of ingredients was that many were traditionally not available. If they had been, then we would have seen them as traditional. Tomato was certanly not on a pizza before Columbus brought them back from S. America.
Duncan, artichokes and anchovies are a traditional pizza topping, and I know seaweed was eaten, so it may well have ended up on pizza in some regions. As for the cheese, I agree that pizza without it is not pizza, but you would be shocked at the difference between the cheese used by 99.99% of pizza places around the world when compared to the traditional cheeses used. Mozzarlla, for example, is not a semi-hard yellow cheese as sold here in Australia, but a white, almost flavourless cheese ball formed by hand from a milky liquid from which it seperates. It is stored in that liquid even when packaged for sale. The real Napolitan pizza is made with buffalo cheese.
A traditional pizza is very thin and baked rapidly in a very hot wood fired brick oven, and comes out tasting fantastic. The bases on many commercial pizzas are in fact deep fired in the oils lining the tray and thick like a foccacia.

OK, this brings me to the third and last trend. The conforming and bastardisation of traditional foods. This is a VERY BAD thing, and I think what you were refering to Peter. Here in Australia it is common for foods to be adjusted to suit the average Aussie, or faked because the patrons just don't have a clue what the real thing is like and they'll eat almost any old mush and think it is good(I'm not kidding). The trend here, much as in the US, is for cheap food in large quatities.
The acceptance of low quality, either because of a similar food tradition at home or for the sake of it being fast and cheap is driving much supermarket as well as resturant food here in Australia to the depths of blandness, poor quality and lack of
real variety.


posted 04-27-2002 07:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Where & what to eat ?
Over the border in Chester, the eating places are fantastic, and quality good.
As to the humble Pizza .. we have our 'Vito's' trattoria. His Pizza Aglio is just as you describe it Erik. But, no cheese. It is classed as a 'starter' pizza.
We usually have it 'mezzo e mezzo', half with garlic, and half with chilli peppers (second half for me).
You really could have a good bowl of fresh salad, one of those, a glass or two of cold Frascati .. and be happy. I would !
My old Italian friend where I live has just moved his wife to a Nursing Home. A sad loss for friends & family. But she used to make simple pizze for the Catholic Church Mornings. They are from Puglia. She 'never' used cheese.
Food is evolving now (an explosion?), just as it has done for centuries. I love cooking & gardening (besides making wine). Simple cooking is still the best.
As you no doubt know Erik, in Italy, Italians 'do not' use a lot of sauce. Sometimes merely butter (or oil) with black pepper on their pasta. My own grandaughter loves to eat it this way.
As to 'Fish 'n Chips' (on which I have been ribbed by Italians in Italy). Please .. where can I buy some REAL fish 'n chips ?
The best ones round here are from Xam Chims !
Is the art of a good crispy batter on the fish now lost like Greek Fire ??????
By the way.
Tonight I am doing fresh Mallard breast in a wild mushroom sauce, with baby roasted fennel, with a little rissoto rice. For drinkie poos .. Barbara d'Asti 1998.
For now .. a cheese cracker & a cuppa.
Buon appetito.

Senior Member
posted 04-27-2002 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message

Eric, I forgot about the anchovies being traditional on a pizza as i don't care for them. But Artichokes?? That was new to me at the time I first saw it.
My sister spent over ten years living in Naples and she describes Pizza as being a lot different then you do. It being two or more inches thick with a lot of sauce and goodies, hmmmm......... I think we've had this discussion before, o well, a difference of no matter as long as it tastes good.
Oh and the food from the new world, have a look at some Roman recipes, seems they had those round red things too.
About Mozzarella being "but a white, almost flavorless cheese ball formed by hand from a milky liquid from which it separates. It is stored in that liquid even when packaged for sale".
We make that kind of cheese here by hand and have for years, along with many others, we even teach classes on cheese making and believe me if the curd and whey {the white milky liquid} is made from fresh milk and is from a good recipe/starter the cheese is any thing but flavorless.
Kinda surprises me that you in all your travels have never found any of good favour but you did say you have to avoid too much dairy products.
When here in the US we say Buffalo we are talking about a different animal then you are. The meat is lean and quite good but I've never drank their milk and have no desire to try and milk one.
I've had some experience's with water buff's and found them to be a little near sited, grumpy and a few other things, I'll keep our type thanks.
Peter on the Greek Fire, I thought for years as most do that the formula was lost, but its not and the ingredients in their simplicity would surprise most people. Many names like Vitriol have changed over the ages.
Now to the main question.......
Does any one have a recipe for the batter for good Fish-N-chips???

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 04-27-2002 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Peter, it sounds like there's almost nothing you can't do with a pizza. Pizza sensa formaggio I have not met with before.
Italians, I think, go to both extremes, from very simple foods to very complex, but it is certainly common for them to have pasta with simple sauce, my favourite being pesto(only takes 5 minutes to make but tastes perfect).

That Mallard sounds mouth watering. How was it? I was going to the movies, so I whipped up a french omelette with a cream mushroom(grown in local refrigirated rooms) sauce, accompanied by a blended Chardonnay. It was very nice. So was the movie, Amelie. Very funny, absolutely worth going to see.

Yes, Duncan, I remember you telling me about your sister's experiences with pizza.
Buy the way, when I travel I don't lay off the dairy products. I eat for the pleasure and don't want anything to spoil or complicate it.

When I say flavourless, I mean a delicate flavour. Sorry, finding the words can be a little difficult at times.
Is there anything you don't do Duncan?
I've only made the one kind of cheese before, it's not really cheese, just curdled(seperated) milk. You then fry it to add to salads and curries.

Water buffalo. That's them.
As for tomatos, they came from S America. The romans did not have them, I'm certain. They had eggplant, which is in the same family. We even have many wild 'tomatos' here in Oz, from a small black one flavoured like aniseed, to the poisonous nightshades.

Must go.

posted 04-28-2002 04:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
The Duck was buonissimo !
In the end I made slits in the two breasts, and then put slices of ginger in. The grilled baby fennel were okay. But most likely better sliced in a salad. To go with the duck I made a simple vegetable rissoto.
As I grow Lovage (known by some as the Knorr plant, after the stock cube, is that how you spell it?), I steep a good handfull of leaves in hot water, and use that as a stock.
And I spelt Barbera wrong .. oops !
I'll be thinking of you guys when I'm back in Piemonte later this year .. I'll drink to that !

Senior Member
posted 04-28-2002 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
Words? I agree one of the harder things in life at times.
Hmmmm.... things i don't do, let me see,
I don't get R + R,
I don't sleep much because of the work,
and i don't get to go fishing!!!
The list of what go's on around here is kinda lengthy and never seems to end, it just keeps being added too. I wont bore you but if your interested let me know.

We have many types of Night shades in the wild here. We grow the good tasting and even the deadly ones in the garden.

Seriously, I have seen some very old recipes from early Rome that had tomatoes, I will get you a copy with out fail when I can find where I put aside that book.
I will concede that no matter what is written in words of history, if I wasn't there it remains hearsay.

[This message has been edited by duncan (edited 04-28-2002).]

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 04-29-2002 07:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah, I remember 'Knorr'. Mum used to use it when we lived in Denmark. My relatives in Switzerland still use it, but it's now full of MSG, so I wouldn't touch it.
Using Lovage sounds better, although I've never heard of the plant.

Duncan, I'd love to hear some of the main work you get up to, but don't go all out on the list as I'd hate to be depriving you sleep.
Now, isn't this site a bit of R and R?

What can I say about the tomatos. It's certainly interesting that literature can state they are new world and known to the Romans. This sounds like something that needs closer examination.


Senior Member
posted 04-29-2002 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJR     Edit/Delete Message
On the subject of fish and chips, a certain shop I visited claimed to serve "The Best Fish & Chips in Inverness" !!! Having tasted their fare, I dread to think what all the other fish and chip shops served.

The best place I have found for this culinary delight is Whitby, North Yorkshire.

Probably freshly caught fish too, lightly battered (not drowned in the stuff). My local "chippy" should be avoided unless you are desperate. Once was enough for me !!! The heavy batter is probably still lying in lumps somewhere within the digestive system - and that's three months later !!

posted 04-29-2002 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
The Oxford book of Plants says;
This native of the lower Andes in Sth. America. First introduced into Europe via Italy in the 16th century.
Yet the Aubergine is a native of tropical Asia.
So there you have it !

Senior Member
posted 04-29-2002 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
Your right CQ is like a weekend off at times and its enjoyable.
When it comes to this place it's easier to name what we don't do, have time off, watch TV, play video games is a few things.

Heres the very short list of what goes on around here:
Metal work of different types including forge and anvil,
Weaving and Spinning,
Lace work,
Knitting and crochet,
Different Fibers and Silk preparations,
Tan hides,
Natural dyes,
Growing our own fibers including wool, silk, cashmere and cotton and ect.
Cheese making,
Dabbling in spirits, {?}
Soap making the old ways of course not glycerine,
we make our own vinegars, thats a by product of the spirits,
Making Kefir, Butter Milk, kombucha, Herman, {sour dough starter},
making our own Leaving Agents,
Bread Making,
We have our own Garden, cattle, goats, sheep, rabbets, hedge hogs, ferret, cats ect. ect. and ect.
We teach classes on most if not all of the above, as well as being taught by those we help to learn some of the old ways,
A large Castle being built with all the research it takes,
Oh yes I cant forget the chores........help, I need lots of Help!!! {mental that is}

I believe I read the Recipes in the 'Roman Cookery of Apicus', I'm still looking but haven't found the book yet.
I did come across this and it might be of interest concerning the elusive tomatoes.
"In the Heyday of the Roman Empire of the 1st to 2nd centuries AD the Mediterranean appetite for eastern spices had become a mania.
The state run pepper houses in Rome imported spices through Alexandria from India by middlemen which was generally the Arabs. Black and white pepper from the coasts of Malabar and Kerala, in Southern India, and cinnamon and its close relative cassia from as far away as Vietnam.
Cloves and nutmegs came from the Moluccas which is the famous Spice Islands of Indonesia over 6 thousand miles away."

It seems the Roman Senate convened many times to discuss the drain on the economy posed by this importation of spices from the orient.

Tannahill, R., 'Food in History'. Penquin, 1988.
J. L. Miller., 'The Spice Trade of the Roman Empire' 1969

Senior Member
posted 04-29-2002 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
I apologize profusly, I forgot to ask what do you do for a living?

Senior Member
posted 04-30-2002 04:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJR     Edit/Delete Message
As a "change", my meal last night, was an experiment. My wife cooked a pork joint, with prunes marinated for 24 hours in red wine. It actually made a pleasant combination, though I think it may have been a waste of good red wine.

A favourite of mine is chicken in apricot and onion soup sauce - mmm !!

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 04-30-2002 04:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Well no wonder you don't sleep much.
That list sounds like a lot of work.
I don't know what Kefir or Herman are, but I love sour dough bread. If I ever figure out where I can fit in that pizza oven in the back yard, I'll be doing some of my own bread making. I'll have to see about making a sour dough mother as well. I've heard they improve greatly with age.

As for me, I'm a biologist, botany mainly, and currently work part time rehabilitating a small(20ha) reserve. I spend my time battling weeds, flood, drought, motorbikes and pyromaniacs and planting trees.
In some of my spare time I work as a volunteer in revegetation and grow all the trees I plant at work.
My hobbies include research(14th century armour) as well as teachig myself to build armour. I also read a lot to help me test the paradigms which are thrust apon us.

Andrew, last time(over a year ago) I had fish and chips it was very, very oily, and I haven't ventured back since. I always go for the crumbed, not battered fish, as it holds less oil and it's more difficult to hide a small fish in crumbs than it is in a thick layer of batter.

Must go.


Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 04-30-2002 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
I don't recall coming across Pork marinated in red wine before. Did she marinate just the prunes, or the pork as well?
Red wine marinade is most commonly done with darker meats such as beef. I had a veal steak once(well, not only once, but this one was especially good) which had been cut very thin so as to be able to cook very fast and had been marinated for two days before in red wine and herbs. Mmmmm.... absolutely devine. It had been prepared by the wife of an Itlian work mate.

Pork often seems to be done with fruit. I guess everybody knows about pork with apple sauce. I've also had a roasted pork roll stuffed with prunes, not marinated though. Sometimes dates, figs and rasins are used instead of prunes, depending on the provenance of the recipe.

Senior Member
posted 05-01-2002 04:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJR     Edit/Delete Message
She only marinated the prunes, but the resulting sauce was poured over the pork before cooking.

Senior Member
posted 05-01-2002 08:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
You sound as if you have your hands full at your work too.
Do you mean with all that you have spare time to do more work?
Where do you grow your trees?
I know this may sound strange coming from a blade maker but I have never tried to make Armour, I make Shields yes but not personnel Armour.
I'd be interested in hearing some of the techniques involved and what tools you use.

The work around here is, well ...work and never seems to end. Like any where else I'd guess.
We just go about it differently then most folks. Much of the things we do are done in the Medieval or Earlier ways some times using tools that have not changed in design since time immortal.
Please do not get me wrong, Computers, Radios, Power Tools and other modern items are a must, but to achieve some results wither its in metal, wool, silk, or herbs, have to be done in the old ways.
We are told over and over again by many people that we live a life they wish they could and some of our students have left our classes to do just that. Some return often for more punishment,....Oooops.....I mean to learn.

The Kefir is a fermented milk drink that can trace its origins before written history. Yes I know,fermented milk...yuck!!!
It does get used in alot of recipies and Megan likes it much better then I do.
We make a sweetish sour dough bread.
There must be hundreds of different types of starters here in the States with San Francisco's being the most famous with its really tangy sour dough.
The starter or mother does improve greatly with age and is not at all hard to keep.
It and Brandied fruit is simple but great in or on foods. No alcohol in it either but it tastes like it has.

We get sleep, sometimes not enough but that seems to be a normal thing around here.
Actually the work is not all that bad or hectic, not every thing is done at once and you learn to build up a stock of what you use every day.

Megan and Ralph
Castle Duncan
The Construction Site

"Till Necessitie and Not
Fill Decore"

[This message has been edited by duncan (edited 05-02-2002).]

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 05-03-2002 04:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
I guess I don't really have spare time, as there is always something that needs to get done, but that's the way with almost everyone.

I grow the trees at a volunteer nursery just down the road, but I'm the only one who really puts in much time there. I guess we grow about 8-10,000 trees a year.

As for the armour, I'm still only a beginner and haven't considered trying to build a full gothic suit ....yet.
So far I've built about five 14th century helmets and two bucklers(small metal shields). The bascinets(a type of helmet with sides) are built of 3 sections(two top halves and the side) which are welded together after being formed. So far my only tools are a large stump for dishing and holding my two stakes and a ballpein, crosspein, panel beating and large dishing hammers, files and home made rectangular punch and die set and riveting jigs as well as the essential angle grinder.
Most of my work so far involved rolling edges, dishing and raising, then fiddly work like sanding and finishing.
I've done some chain maille work, but still need to make the shirt. A coat of plates and arm and leg armour are still to come too.

I've never tried fermented milk, but cheese is one of my favourite foods.

Senior Member
posted 05-05-2002 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
We have been shearing the animals and clipping hoofs lately as well as just starting the job of extending the house hold garden to inclose the new green house that is being built, so I've not been able to get back to reply until now.
Trees? More like a forest you are growing! Thats alot of trees you have to take care of.
Armour, a full set would be a daunting task considering how many people worked on them in the Middle Ages. You have my respect for making the items that you have.
The bascinets type of helmet, do you electric weld or forge weld those pieces?
Your assortment of tools tells me you are into doing this very seriously. How long have you been making armour?
I see items on Ebay for sell that pertains to making armour quite often, some one with a modern shop is reproducing the tools and they are fairly reasonable in price.
My daughter is into making chain mail but hasn't gotten past the novelty stage yet. Like making balls out of 10-n-1 rings.
I've thought of making plate for some time and thats probably as close to being made as it will get for now.
Yes cheese is one of my favorite foods too, it goes with almost every thing including Ale and Wine and their is so many different types.

Megan is writing a page on Mushrooms for our web site and I pinched a wee bit and put it into my words because it sort of fits in this topic of food, at least some of it does.

One of the phenomenon exhibited by certain fungi is luminosity or phosphorescence. This character is confined to comparatively few types but this ghostlike light has been the basis for many superstitions. An Australian species is recorded as giving off so clear emerald-green light that you can read a book in the near vicinity.
Heres a few other types that are out of the normal,

In the Middle Ages it was set in a bowl of honeyed milk to kill fly's and unwanted bugs. {Not good to eat, very poisonous!}

Tinder Fungus:
Spread with potassium nitrate it will burst into a good flame when struck with a spark, it burns so slow that it was used to transport fire from one location to another as far back as in very primitive ages. {Not good to eat}

Side Walk Mushroom:
This one grows almost any where, even in the cities where it pushes up through Asphalt and the cracks in Concrete. {GOOD to eat, although I would think it might be a bit tough}

[This message has been edited by duncan (edited 05-05-2002).]

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 05-06-2002 03:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah, a forest, that's it. Most of the landscape around here is very open eucalypt woodland with a grass ground layer, but the area I'm working on is an uncommon dry rainforest mix and will eventually form a continuous canopy as it matures. If it ever gets to, that is.

As for my armouring, all the specialist tools are home made(stakes, large dishing hammer, punch and die, riveting jigs etc.), and I scrounge secondhand tools that can be modified. I couldn't afford to buy very much of it, the postage from the US in particular would break the bank. I could probably get a hammer head or something like that forged locally if I need one. I must say though, my workshop is very bare in comparison to those who armour more seriuosly. I only began to make armour about 1.5-2 years ago, and then only during winter as it's too hot in the shed in summer.
All the welding is oxy, done by a friend who used to weld professionally. I don't have a forge and am unlikely to get that enthusiastic.
I've got a few scanned pics of a buckler and a helm I made. I could mail some to you if you like.

Fungus. There are so many here in Australia but very little work has been done on their taxonomy, let alone their palatability.
A good friend of mine came a cross 45 species(all new species) of truffle when studing Bettongs, a small kangaroo-like animal. It eats truffles, amongst other things, and he found the spores in the animal's dung. Before his study, no-one had looked at truffles in this part of Australia, the closest study was 3000km away, and they found 23 species.

The luminescent fungi you mention occur not too far away from here up in the rainforest. I've walked around at night through a forest floor full of them, but I wouldn't say I could read by their light. I'm sure there are several species of those also.

I don't go 'mushrooming' here, it's too dry for many to grow and with such a limited knowledge of what's what, it would be a lttle foolhardy. I have been told that all the puffballs are edible when young and still white inside, but I haven't felt the need to test it.
In Switzerland I have been 'mushrooming' with family several times, in Ticino. Nothing quite like a pan of freshly picked fungi fried up in a little butter and spices. Mmmmmm!


Senior Member
posted 05-07-2002 08:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for duncan   Click Here to Email duncan     Edit/Delete Message
I'd like to see the pics of your work! That would be great if you don't mind sending them.

I can see how you would have Truffles there with the climate differences and as much as they are selling for on the market it might be a good business to get into maybe.
I don't go hunting fungus either, that's something the wife and daughter likes to do but I enjoy the hike through the woods.
I agree a pan full with butter is wonderful.
Surprising some taste like chicken and others like beef steak.
Are the Bettongs trainable to find Truffles like pigs are?

Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
posted 05-08-2002 05:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik Schmidt   Click Here to Email Erik Schmidt     Edit/Delete Message
I haven't heard of anyone training a Bettong yet, but the idea has crossed our minds.
Unfortunately, apart from so little being known about these truffles, including taste and toxicity, they are generally very small, about the size of a pea, and are therefore unlikely to make it as a commercial product.

I'll mail the pics to you as soon as I can.


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