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Author
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Topic: questions about Schloss Neuschwanstein...
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cjmeyers
Member
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posted 12-05-2001 11:27 AM
 
I have a few questions about Neuschwanstein. I hope there's someone out there who can answer them...What did Ludwig II originally call his piece de resistance?
When was it built?
Wasn't there a quote from Ludwig himself concerning Neuschwanstein in the winter as opposed to visiting during the summer?
And last but not least...
Anyone hear anything about it being available for weddings? |
Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 12-06-2001 07:54 AM
You'll find many links and info on Neuschwanstein if you type that name into the CQ-searchmodus. Many people have alread asked things about that specific "Schloss" and I realy don't know what's so fascinating them. It was built from 1868 - 1886 and replaced the medieval castle of Hohenschwangau of which nothing remains today. I don't know why the crazy king Ludwig II. called it his "pièce de résistance" - maybe because to build this symbol of late romanticism was very expensive. Ludwig was inspired by the music of Richard Wagner and wanted to build "a castle in the true heroic style of the middle ages". But the poor guy and his architects had no idea of medieval castles and so they realized that Disney-styled product of an overheated fantasy and destroyed the original castle. There's no better example to eplain what the german word "Kitsch" realy means... |
katharina
Member
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posted 02-17-2002 06:04 AM
Hi!
Merlin has given you false information. The Neuschwanstein wasn`t build on another castle, there wasn`t anything on the mountain before. The Hohenschwanstein is situated right opposite to the Neuschwanstein castle on the next mountain; it was a hounting castle of the Wittelsbach family (the Bavarian kings), Ludwig had just renovated it a little bit. |
Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-18-2002 06:54 AM
Hi Katharina…I will collect some information and give a better information later… In fact merlin hasn’t given a false information because ludwig built his "castle" in the ruins of an originally medieval castle, the "Vorderhohenschwanstein" (if I remember the name correctly). But are right: The castle "Hohenschwangau" is still existing in Füssen, almost completely renovated in the romantic historistic stile by Ludwig‘s Father Maximilian, King of Bavaria. Merlin you wrote: quote:
But the poor guy and his architects had no idea of medieval castles and so they realized that Disney-styled product of an overheated fantasy and destroyed the original castle. There's no better example to eplain what the german word "Kitsch" realy means...
I would like to discuss your statement. In short terms – because time is pressing – I’d like to say that nowadays there is the possibility to judge about historism in a more different way. I guess your judgement is too strict: Ludwig, of course, knew quite well how a medieval castle should look like. But he realized his dream of the middle ages, and as he did in Linderhof or Herrenchiemsee with 18th cent. styles , his ideas about Knighthood and monarchy… [This message has been edited by Peter Esser (edited 02-18-2002).] |
Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-18-2002 06:59 AM
(But of course in Gemany we can be thankful that Ludwig didn’t realize all of his dreams… *shiver*)
http://www.greifswald-online.de/hp/JJ/falkenstein.jpg |
Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-18-2002 04:27 PM
The ultimative Neuschwanstein picture collection … no wish will be left.
http://images.google.com/images?q=neuschwanstein&svnum=10&hl=de&start=0&sa=N [This message has been edited by Peter Esser (edited 02-18-2002).] |
katharina
Member
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posted 02-19-2002 05:31 AM
Hi Peter!
I have followed your link and descovered the very beautiful pictures. I quite agree with your comment about Ludwig's intentions. He did a great thing for Bavaria by creating this astonisching beauty. The castle is unique. The destruction of the original ruin is not such a tragic matter--there are still enough beautiful ruins remain in Bavaria, like Falkenstein or Hohenfreiberg. |
Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
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posted 02-19-2002 06:06 AM
Peter Esser, what makes you think King Ludwig knew quite well what a medieval castle should look like? The castles in his time would have been in little better state of rapair than they are toady, and he would not have had all the archeological knowledge that we do today.Katharina, firstly, let me tell you this. Neuschwanstein IS NOT A CASTLE! As mentioned above, it was built around 1870(only about 130 years ago) That's about 400 years after the last of the true castles were built. There are steam trains still running which were built before that palace. This site is devoted to the study of real castles, real castle architecture, castle history, the sharing of information about castles as well as the general appreciation of castles. Most of those structures in which we are so interested have been lost to time, war and indifference, many of those remaining in ruins or greatly altered. They are in effect precious clues to what castles once were......and you have the astonishing absence of mind to come here and say "The destruction of the original ruin is not such a tragic matter..."
I for one do not share your view on this matter, it is totally contrary to what this site is about. I don't understand why you are here. Erik |
AJR
Senior Member
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posted 02-19-2002 06:46 AM
Although Neuschwanstein is not a true castle as Erik so rightly says, it could be the springboard to learning about real castles - those built for defence as well as habitation.
Many people come here not really knowing what a castle is, having possibly only seen Schloss Neuschwanstein and maybe a few other so-called "castles", that rightly belong under the heading of palaces or "mock" castles.Katharina, I encourage you to search the site and see the wide variety of castles (look in the Photo Archive for example, or some of the web links) and see how we get fired-up with enthusiasm.
Some people won't understand the interest in these buildings, ruins and earthworks, but the history and architecture behind them can open your eyes and expand your knowledge. Go on - search for yourself and be fascinated !!!
Andrew |
Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-19-2002 07:30 AM
AJR, I agree to your statement.Eric, for me it seems to be self-evident that a member of one of the eldest european families should know what a castle looks like. But 19th century’s intention is different from our ideas of taking care for the witnesses of our past. Ludwig still could dream of Monarchy or medieval ideals. But even nowadays – are we so clear how restauration should work? For my point of view Neuschwanstein – which is officially classified as a "Schloss", a palace – ist real Kitsch. But thousands of people from all over the world like it. Even here in this forum devoted to medieval castles: Again and again the question about Neuschwanstein - and the misunderstanding Neuschwanstein were a real castle. I would propose to welcome those who ask for this pseudo-castle. And to discuss the following topics: How far should restauration go? Is there any value in Historism’s interpratation of medieval architecture? What is the fascinating thing about castles, and even the fairy-tale-castles everywhere (because Neuschwanstein isn’t the only one … ). Which dream is behind the feascination? Castle-enthusiasm for beginners. Clear argumentation and documentation shows the difference between pseudo-castles and real castles. The fascination - for example - of Neuschwanstein vanishes fast enough if you visit it, while the fascination of any ruin grows if you start learning about its history… |
Erik Schmidt
Senior Member
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posted 02-19-2002 10:43 PM
Peter, most Europeans are members of old European families, but most do not know anything about medieval castles even today, when books on the subject are so freely available.
Just because he was a member of a wealthy family who could trace their ancestry a long way back does not make him more qualified to know about castles than the less wealthy people who do not have written evidence that they belong to families with an equally long history in Europe.But maybe he did, since they did call him Mad King Ludwig.  |
katharina
Member
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posted 02-20-2002 05:21 AM
Yes, I agree that Neuschwanstein is not a real castle. If we define the word CASTLE as a mark for medieval structures construsted for defence and millitary purposes, than, of couse, Neuschwanstein is not a castle. But, than, the word CASTLE means a type of architectural structure, which include thick walls, towers, moats, etc, than Neuschwanstein lookes like the one. Erick Schmidt, the forum is not only about the medieval castles, but about many questions and problems, that concern castles. Peter Esser is definately right then Neuschwanstein is still a problematic subject. I think the fascination of the fairy-tale castles comes from the fact that they look beautiful. Neuschwanstein is an ideal thing, the best model of what a castle can look like. This is an idea behind the construction of the castle, the same idea is in arts. On the contrary, in the medieval times people were building castles with different ideas behind: they just wanted them to work as defence structures and, at the same time, to be a suitable living spaces. As for Ludwig, a book about Neuschwanstein says, that he was influenced by his visit to the Wartburg in 1867. This and his great enthusiasm, for which he was called the Mad, make me think, that he must have seen many castles (he had time, interest and opportunitys) and, as many enthusiast today, must have known a great deal about them. |
Gordon
unregistered
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posted 02-20-2002 09:49 AM
Since the site in question apparently was the site of a true castle, and the subsequent palace continues the history of that site, then in my view discussion is valid. From a personal point of view, I tend to agree with the statement that although the place is a mansion, which is of little interest to me , it does indeed stimulate interest in true castles. This discussion has allowed the most informative CQ discussion to date on this site and will provide us with an easy link in response to furture questions on Neuschwanstein, it is therefore of personal value given that I have no personal desire to engage in discussion on the mansion itself. I am content to allow it it's place here. It is one site whose fame will repeatedly raise the topic of castle definition, always a great stimulus for discussion, however tired a topic this is in CQ.------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page
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duncan
Senior Member
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posted 02-20-2002 10:53 AM
This is a Castle web site and its agreed that Neuschwanstein is not a Castle, so my question is, where as moderators do we draw the line?
The topic could just as well include Disneys fakes which he originaly designed after the mad kings {at least its what Walt said in person when i was a child} and many other shams with a list far to long for this post.
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Gordon
unregistered
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posted 02-20-2002 12:14 PM
The line is drawn with the history.
In the case of this particular site a castle existed before Ludwig's madness, and so as I have said, although the mansion is of no great interest, the history is a continuum from before the palace to beyond the life of the castle.
CQ is more than just a medieval castle site, although that is the main focus of the moderators and members interest. The allocation of the forums indicates this...geneology, where to stay, movies, building your own castle, and even..... web page design??!!
Our purpose is to generate interest and facilitate the education of those who cannot properly distinguish a true castle from a piece of disneyland 'kitsch', to do this they have to visit us, and so we have a wide subject range but each with links to our core topic. That said, modern mansions without the history do not warrant mention here, since then there is no link with earlier times. In this case there is such a link, as there is with Lanrick, which I posted earlier. Where is the difference between this castle and Neuschwanstein?
Many of our famous castle sites discussed in this forum no longer sustain medieval elements, but they are included because that is when the history began...with an earlier castle on the same site. If the history was not there, then we could dismiss it. We cannot when it is, because it constitutes a lost site which is an integral part of the overall remit for discussion here.------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page
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Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-20-2002 03:08 PM
Thank you Gordon, thank you Duncan.As to Erics reply I wanted to correct myself: Of couse I meant aristocratic families – they used to live in castles and palaces. For me it’s still a problem to think and write in English. Ludwig (I wouldn’t call him a "mad" king so easily) knew the Wartburg (which, by the way, has a 19th century great tower) so he must have been able to realize he was about building just an interpretation of a real castle. Duncan, I think that the question is what we want to discuss … The discussion of the pseudo-castle "which-must-not-be-named" in this place is a failure, ok. But the problem is that many folks just klick on this site and remember of this marvellous castle they have seen somewhere, on a screensaver, in a magazine, on some popular web-site. Really the best thing to say is (as it did AJR): Katharina, I encourage you to search the site and see the wide variety of castles (look in the Photo Archive for example, or some of the web links) and see how we get fired-up with enthusiasm. The discussion of the pseudo-castles couled take place in castle-related topics. I am convinced that we owe the excentric monarch more than you want to admitt. Romanticism is a time of research of medieval culture by the means of art, literature and architecture. Before the 19th century, castles were modernized in other styles, just à la mode. Those enthusiasts wanted to re-animate the middle age’s feudal culture, so they studied the architectural forms – and interpreted them in their ways. See Lichtenstein (in Germany): http://www.roadstoruins.com/images/Lichtenstein.JPG It only seems to be a contradiction that Ludwig destroyed the old ruins. His aim was to reanime an knighthood ideal, so the aim of monumental protection in our modern sense was strange to him. But people started being sensible for their heritage, and I think, Romanticism has its stake in contemporary monumental protection. As for this forum’s intention I would not use the moderator’s role so quickly. Please don’t draw the line too close. I would try to solve the problem by a Historism-thread like "Pseudo Castles" in "Castle related topics" - and if anybody wants to know something about Neuschwanstein, give him a link to this topic. People who just want to see "beautiful pictures" may be satisfied. (Pffff… it would be much easier for me to write in my own language, but this makes fun! I hope you could understand what I meant … ) |
Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-20-2002 03:24 PM
quote:
That said, modern mansions without the history do not warrant mention here, since then there is no link with earlier times. In this case there is such a link, as there is with Lanrick, which I posted earlier. Where is the difference between this castle and Neuschwanstein?
Gordon, but in this special case there is no tradition from Vorderhohenschwangau (I just imagine you trying to pronounce it,  ) to the pseudo-castle , for it is not linked to the original floorprint, regional edification traditions, the purpose of the elder castle, or the regional edification traditions. The reason why the topic should not be omitted is that it is a good example for what I would call "Rezeptionsgeschichte" (History of reception - Does this term exist?). |
Gordon
unregistered
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posted 02-20-2002 03:30 PM
No, there is no recognized phrase like the one you have used Peter, but it actually sounds as though you are agreeing with me (if I interpret the phrase freely), since I made the point that the history of the site is the link.
Oh, and it's probably a lot easier for a Scot to pronounce German than any other english speakers, since our own dialects use the same sounds, or so German speaking Scots tell me!------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page
[This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 02-20-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 02-20-2002).] |
duncan
Senior Member
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posted 02-20-2002 05:41 PM
Gordon i agree with your statments about the history of a site being used as the bases of discussions, that in its self would exempt the modern mansions and other follys.
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Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 02-22-2002 11:02 AM
(Although I once sweared to myself that I'll never write anything about Neu Schwanstein again at CQ: )Peter, I agree that Romanticism in Europe did a lot for the re-discovery of the middle ages. People stopped to use old castles as quarries and saw them in a new light. The problem is: The real scientific approach came only about a hundred years later, when many castles were already destroyed by those romantic dreamers. One of the most famous examples is the Hohkönigsburg in the Alsace, France. The very big ruins of that 12th century-castle looked so romantic, that the german emperor Wilhelm decided in the 1910s to rebuild it in what he and his architects thought to be the true style of the middle ages. The Hohkönigsburg today looks much more medieval than Neuschwanstein does, but the effect is the same: The old ruin has vanished for something that todays tourists like to visit and take pictures of. The archeological evidence - to see how the biggest castle of the Alsace developed over the centuries, from the time of the Hohenstaufen until the late middle ages - is lost forever. Another point: Why should king Ludwig of Bavaria know better than anyone else how the castles of his ancestors had looked in the middle ages? The german emperor Wilhelm didn't know it either, as did the Bourbons of France when they built Versailles two centuries earlier. Ludwid could not and would not build an authentic medieval castle, but something that looked like a symbol of wealth and power in the style of that time. |
Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-23-2002 04:04 PM
Merlin, I agree to your Hohkenigsbourg-statement. I had to think of it, too.And it seems as if I had to put into another perspective what I said about the "re-discovery" of the Middle-Ages. The real start had begun much earlier, in Germany a start is marked by Gorthes esssay "Über deutsche Baukunst" - "About german edification art" in the year of 1822. No doubt, for me an authentical ruin is much better than a necesserily falsified reconstruction. - And in the case of the pseudo-castle, stage decoration painters were responsible for the design. I would be greatly interested in finding contemporary statements to the edification of Neuschwanstein … |
Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-24-2002 03:28 PM
I found a photograph of the Hohkönigsburg in the year of 1859. Before the reconstruction.
http://pierkreyer.multimania.com/images/pages/htkng1859.jpg |
Merlin
Senior Member
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posted 02-25-2002 03:59 AM
I found another one:
http://www.crdp-strasbourg.fr/siteStatique/alsace_1900/hohkoenigsbourg.htm And here the result of the "romantic" restauration:
http://www.studio-internet.com/ht_koenigsbourg |
Germany01
Member
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posted 02-27-2002 12:08 AM
Ummm... Has anyone really tried to answer the original question for this topic??? Or has this become a castle debate forum... |
Gordon
unregistered
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posted 02-27-2002 09:41 AM
Debate is welcomed, this is not simply a Q&A site. ------------------
'Demeure par la verite'
Visit; Gordon's Scottish Castles Resource Page
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Peter Esser
Senior Member
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posted 02-27-2002 11:00 AM
[Q]Has anyone really tried to answer the original question for this topic???[/Q]Hmmm … Merlin in his first reply, I suppose. During King Ludwig’s lifetime his palace was called Vorder-Hohenschwangau … For visitors I found an extraordinary odd site. (Attention! Turn your speakers low!)
http://neuschwanstein-country.net/koenigswinkel/subindex.htm |
Gordon
unregistered
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posted 03-20-2002 04:32 PM
This topic was moved from 'Individual Castles' on the 20th March 2002. | |
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