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Author
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Topic: Heat, water, elec., telephone, etc. How are you doing it?
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DreamWarrior
Senior Member
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posted 06-02-99 02:37 PM
  
Hi everyone! Please share info in this topic about how you are incorporating utilities into your modern castles. Also, how were some of these things done in medieval and ancient times (specifically heating and water distribution)?DW
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 06-02-99 04:09 PM
I'm afraid I can only help on the medieval aspects, and only for England and Wales.Heating
Heating was from open fires of hardwood. (Coal was known, throughout the medieval period, and used by smiths and the poor in areas were it occur ed but was sulfurous and thus smelt unpleasant and was of low status. In the very late medieval period the domestic use of coal became more common.) In earlier halls (ie Stokesay Castle http://www.castlewales.com/stokesay )the fire was in the center of the hall and the smoke escaped through the roof (eventually! I have been in a hall with an open fire and even with open doors and windows the smoke was pretty thick - I gather the few preserved remains of medieval people have lungs that would make a forty a day smoker look health!) In castles fireplaces existed but the chimneys weren't that efficient until the 15th century so they were still fairly smoky.
It should also be remember that people wore thick clothing and almost always wore hats at all times. Since a lot of the bodies heat is lost through the head wearing a hat is an effective way of keeping warm. If you were to dress in medieval clothes you would find your heating demands would be different. I have worn 17th century dress, which is not dissimilar in basic materials, and found it very warm. Water
Generally, with very few exceptions, water for washing was carried in buckets and jugs from the castle well (Wells were generally considered a better water supply than rivers, which could be polluted with animal and human waste and the industrial waste from tanners and tawners). A few royal castles (Dover and Caernarfon are examples) had some lead piping to get rainwater from rooftop cisterns to kitchens and chambers. Few people drank water. Wine and Ale were considerable safer (the alcohol is a bit of a disinfectant and if the drink does become contaminated it turns to vinegar). Laundry was done somewhat less often than today and would have been done by washer women in local rivers. (the invention of the automatic washing machine has not reduced the time people -ie women- spend doing laundry they just do the laundry more often, wasting more energy, increasing the greenhouse effect and putting more phosphates and other chemicals into the ecosystem as a result!) Human waste was not usually directly washed away but either went down a dry shaft (the garderobe) into a pit or the moat or people used a chamber pot which was then taken to a dung heap (peasants went directly to the fields). The chamber pot became more popular in the late medieval period and smelly garderobes stopped being used. The 'night soil' from chamber pots and garderobe pits would have been mixed with animal manure and used as a fertilizer. However, it should be said that in monasteries there was quite often a more sophisticated water supply system were a stream would flow through specially built conduits through the monastery powering a watermill, supplying the kitchen and lavatorium (washing place for washing before meals etc.) and lastly flushing the reredorter (or necessaria as it was also called). ------------------
Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them,
Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design
and nurses clean out the garderobes!
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DreamWarrior
Senior Member
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posted 06-03-99 09:12 AM
Wow. Sounds like people lived dirtier back then than I realized.I have a few ideas on this subject too: Heat
In the Hall, I was thinking of building an open hearth in the middle, but with a twist. It would be made probably of river rock or something like it, mortared together, with a stone slab top. It would look like a short table. The fire would be built on top of this. Then I would have a stone chimney of sorts, suspended from the ceiling and ascending through the top of the building. This way, the heat radiating from the stone of the chimney would also heat rooms above the hall. The only problem is how to suspend the chimney above the hearth and making it safe and sturdy. I suppose I could use some rebar or other type of reinforcement on the inside.
I was thinking I could also use a more modern approach: heated floors. This method is very efficient for whole-house heating. It is used by placing tubing under the floorcovering, and running hot water through it. This water can even be heated by solar panels. Water
As far as water goes, I was thinking of building a resivoir on the roof, with specially designed tiles that are slotted to catch rainwater, with a mesh screen under the tiles to prevent the intrusion of birds or other animals. The only two problems with this idea are 1) decontamination and 2) heating. As far as heating the water, I could use either solar power (which is getting much more efficient lately), or a conventional water heater. I appreciate everyone's input!
Thanks,
DW [This message has been edited by DreamWarrior (edited 06-03-99).]
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DreamWarrior
Senior Member
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posted 06-03-99 09:24 AM
Phillip- to correct your link for Stokesay Castle above, it's www.castlewales.com/stokesay.html .
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 06-03-99 12:30 PM
Thanks, DreamWarrior, for correcting my typo.
If I were building I would certainly go for underfloor heating, not actually authentic but would not impose on an authentic look. I would keep an open fire, but in a wall mounted fireplace, built with an original design to give the correct look. The big architerial struggle of the middle ages was to get wider halls without columns and pillers so your central chimmney would be very uncastle like (but don't forget I'm a bit of a castle purist)The fitting of services should not be to difficult if you are working from an original design since their is plenty of room within the thick walls to put cables, air ducts and even laundry shafts and dumb waiters, the thickness of the walls in castles is defensive not structrual, so providing you don't mind losing your resistence to bombardment by catapult you can do this. However the outlet for services need careful thought so as not to spoil the authentic look. I'd go for carefully designed furniture to hide outlets and modern services. Actually I could imagine spending nearly as much on interior design as on the actually building of a castle to get an authentic medieval look with the modern comforts of controllable heating, easy cooking and food preparation, straight forward bathing etc. not to mention somewhere to hide the the telly and the computer. (I might win the lottery be able to build my castle and buy my blondi blue G3 Mac but I could hardly put it in the middle of my medieval hall.) ------------------
Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them,
Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design
and nurses clean out the garderobes!
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duncan
Senior Member
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posted 06-03-99 01:34 PM
While I'm not a psychotic, one of our friends asked if he could build a full scale seige engine he had seen at www.tf guild org/index.html {see high land fling} and have it on display on the grounds. Three hundred pound rocks thrown, then clocked by a radar gun at over 100 miles per hour for two hundred yards could make one a bit nervous.[This message has been edited by duncan (edited 11-20-2000).] |
DreamWarrior
Senior Member
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posted 06-03-99 03:16 PM
Great ideas, guys! Phillip, you mentioned that earlier halls had an open hearth in the middle of the hall, but without any sort of chimney. I like the open hearth idea, but I don't like the idea of having the place filled with smoke. That is the only reason I am trying to think of a way to make some sort of chimney (I am somewhat of a purist, too). Another thing I thought about was having a fireplace that is open on all four sides, but is built into the base of an arch, using the arch as a chimney. As the chimney goes through other floors, it will hide inside columns/pillars. Problem is, an arch in the middle of a hall kind of defeats the purpose of having a hall OR a hearth in the middle. Guess I could do that in another room.Authenticity is also important to a degree too. I do plan to have some very modern areas in my castle, but I will section these off into their own rooms. For instance, I would like to have a couple pool tables, so I figure I'll just make the whole room look like a pool hall as if you just walked through a time warp. The same thing can be done with electricity, phones, ventilation systems, etc. Someone also mentioned a dumbwaiter. I would like to build a system that is all mechanical and will transport items not only between floors, but also around to different rooms on a floor. DW
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 06-03-99 03:17 PM
Thanks for the link to the Timber Framers site, absolutely fascinating (you link was slightly wrong the actual link is http://www.tfguild.org/fling/fling0.html for the trebuchet).Good luck with the project. ------------------
Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them,
Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design
and nurses clean out the garderobes!
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 06-03-99 03:56 PM
At Tintern Abbey there is a fireplace like the one you describe I've posted a suggested reconstruction of this 13th century fireplace at http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/warming.jpg . This reconstruction is by Chris Jones-Jenkins and is from the CADW handbook.
This is from a Cistercian abbey. It has been argued that the Cistercians were at the forefront of 12th/13th century technological progress and this is a pretty advanced chimmney.
As a byline the people of the medieval period weren't that dirty. Those who could afford the water (it cost effort to bring water to a home, ask many people in africa or asia) washed their hands before eating. The Cistercians had a rite called the mandatum where their feet were washed every Saturday. Rich people enjoyed bathing and the Bishop of Winchester rented out several bathhouses in Southwark, just south of London. However the bathhouses were basically brothals and in later centuries bathing became associated with lax morals and lewdness. ------------------
Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them,
Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design
and nurses clean out the garderobes!
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duncan
Senior Member
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posted 06-03-99 06:20 PM
Your very welcome Philip, at least my post got you to the right place.
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DreamWarrior
Senior Member
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posted 06-04-99 12:10 AM
The fireplace at Tintern Abbey is very close to the idea I have, however, it is built up to look like a fireplace instead of keeping the shape of the arch/column. Here is a link to a file on my website (which has nothing to do with castles, by the way), showing a basic sketch of my idea. Forgive the lack of artistic quality, but I think it gets the point across. The link is: http://business.fortunecity.com/waitt/753/castles/fireplace.bmp This is a bitmap file, so it will probably open an external viewer (you shouldn't have to save it to disk). I had no way of converting it to a jpeg or gif. Sorry.
DW
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Braveheart
Member
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posted 06-12-99 04:16 PM
I will begin construction of a 4500 square foot "castle" in aproximately 1 year. Let me just say that I think it is important to remember that real castles were not pleasant places to live. The alure of living in a real castle would soon wear off after you lived in one. They were cold, drafty and dirty places. They often used straw or hay on the floors (like in a barn) for floor covering. My castle will be constructed similarly to a modern home. It will have all possible modern conveniences. It will have some styling cues of old castles like battlements, a gated wall system around the home and even a large round five story tower. Since I do not plan on fending off any invasions my walls will not be ten feet thick. The tower will however be fortified almost like a bomb shelter with emergency supply storage, arrow loops, more battlements and the ability to go to the very top. Keep in mind that any castle building project will be very expensive. Mine will cost approx. 500,000 US dollars, possible more with the detached garage and wall system. Once you have spent all of this money, unless you are Bill Gates, co9mpletely nuts or both, you may need to get that money back out of the project. You know, sell. You need to make sure that someone else will be as enchanted with your castle as you are. Think modern home with the taste of a medevil castle and maybe one or two fortified areas like mine. You'll be a lot more comfortable, you'll be able to get a bank loan and you will be ables to sell if you want or need to. Be realistic guys.
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duncan
Senior Member
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posted 06-13-99 08:33 AM
"One persons reality may not be anothers"
If you are spending 500,000$ you might talk to people that do live in castles.
As you say, yours wont be real. Research on eny project is esential, and the lack of it can spell disaster.[This message has been edited by duncan (edited 06-30-99).]
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 06-14-99 12:00 AM
Certainly since my castle is entirely a fantasy project I feel I can build it as an authentic castle. However, there are certain fundimental aspects of castles which I feel are important and the most important of these is thick walls. Even if these thick walls are full of services, insulation, cupboards, wardrobes or even small rooms the still have to give the feel of being thick otherwise you are not building a castle you're building a crennulated house. (To be fair interior walls, and walls facing an interior courtyard, could be thin but the front exterior wall at the very least should give the impression of being a couple of yards thick.)------------------
Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them,
Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design
and nurses clean out the garderobes!
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 06-14-99 12:01 AM
Certainly since my castle is entirely a fantasy project I feel I can build it as an authentic castle. However, there are certain fundimental aspects of castles which I feel are important and the most important of these is thick walls. Even if these thick walls are full of services, insulation, cupboards, wardrobes or even small rooms the still have to give the feel of being thick otherwise you are not building a castle you're building a crennulated house. (To be fair interior walls, and walls facing an interior courtyard, could be thin but the front exterior wall at the very least should give the impression of being a couple of yards thick.)------------------
Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them,
Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design
and nurses clean out the garderobes!
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Rick
Member
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posted 07-19-99 11:23 AM
DW,
That you are asking such questions must mean you are fairly far along in your planning and building scheme; I dream of when I'm at that stage! I have a couple of humble suggestions. First the heating. The thick, heavy stone walls of a castle don't insulate well, BUT they have incredible thermal mass, so they absorb a lot of heat energy which they can slowly radiate back to the inside of the room. So I would recommend a woodburning masonry oven. There's a company called Tulikivi (scandinavian?) that has a web site with pictures of masonry fireplaces that could be faced with brick, stone or whatever you like that would visually fit in perfectly in a castle, and they are much more energy efficient than a normal fireplace, where most of the heat goes right out the chimney. There's a book called "Masonry fireplaces" or something similar (check Amazon.com) that supposedly details the construction of such efficient woodburners and has pictures, etc. Also, have you considered putting radiant heat in your floor? Whether you have stone, tile or wood floors you could have pipes that run under the floor that carry heated, circulating oil that supposedly keeps the floor so warm you can walk on it barefoot. And since heat rises, if your floor is warm the whole room should be also. About water, I don't know if you live in an area with much rainfall, but if you do then you are a prime candidate for catching the rainfall that hits your castle's roof and using that as a water source. Any water that could be stored on the roof would be a benefit since you would not have to employ a noisy pump, just let gravity do the work. Real Goods (realgoods.com) is a company specializing in solar and other "green" energy sources and sells a great book on how to set up your own rain water collection system, which I think could certainly be adopted for a structure such as a castle. Hope this helps or at least sparks other ideas.
Rick
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DreamWarrior
Senior Member
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posted 07-20-99 12:09 PM
Rick, Radiant heat is an idea I have been toying with, and that I probably will implement. I do like the idea about masonry stoves. I'm actually not as far along as you might think. I'm basically gathering ideas now, and I plan on doing the design when I get a little extra time. Thanks for the info!DW
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Levan
Moderator
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posted 07-28-99 01:59 PM
At Castle Levan (15h century) we have a very discrete modern under-floor heating system. It consists of zig-zagged plastic pipes run by a normal boiler. It works very well - no unsightly radiators; even, draught-free heat (ideal if you have antiques); works equaly well under stone or wood, carpet too; kills dust mite. Of course, we have open fires, wood-burning stoves and such-like - but these are mainly for show and 'real fire' ambience. Folks visiting our castle always remark on how cosy it is - all the more surprising when you consider the inhospitable climate on Scotland's west coast! Trevor Hayward of Levan
Castle Levan
Gourock, Scotland UK
mailto:levan@kirkburn.com
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Levan
Moderator
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posted 08-10-99 06:40 AM
Hey, I've just taken another, more detailed look at some of the postings in this discussion. I don't intend to be contensious, but Braveheart suggests that...
"real castles were not pleasant places to live. The alure of living in a real castle would soon wear off after you lived in one." I DO live in a real castle - it IS pleasant to live in - and the alure has NEVER worn off! Mind you, we have cheated a little, read my previous posting to see how we've made it cosy. I suppose the operative word is 'were' - that doesn't mean that with a little imagination the same need apply today. Castles - dirty too! Some might have been, but I've seen records kept at some castle households that suggest a great deal of effort was put in to maintaining cleanliness - at least as far as they understood it in earlier times. I guess some of these standards were comparative - how clean were other housholds of the era? Some were totally squalid, principally because of the lack of fresh water and drainage or ventilation. A number of castles had the very latest technology such as flues for fires, opening glazed windows, running water and, lavatories (some with manual flush mechanisms) and drainage systems that removed waste from the premises. Cheers
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Philip Davis
unregistered
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posted 08-12-99 02:19 PM
It's all a question of expectations. In the 12th century having a water tight roof to a room which you didn't have to share with the oxen was pretty good going. Castles were the great houses of their age, grand castles like The Tower of London were the height of luxury. Today all but the most poor in the western world live with greater luxury than the wealthest 12th king could have dreamed of. Homes are lit with clean, odour free and bright light, heating is instant and smoke free, travel is quick, cheap and painless, food is varied and fresh. About the one thing which is worse now than then is chemical and toxic pollution of air and water, some of this is a result of the washing of ourselves, our homes and our clothes. We are only cleaner now because our water and air are full of the dirt, and the chemicals we use to remove the dirt.------------------
Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them,
Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design
and nurses clean out the garderobes!
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duncan
Senior Member
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posted 08-14-99 04:57 PM
Thank you Levan for pointing out that people remain the same through the centuries.
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wurdsmiff
unregistered
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posted 11-15-99 03:03 PM
I'm not really in favour of building 'new castles', since I don't believe that they are true castles as I argue in 'Food for Thought', however each to their own. I am much more in favour of renovating those genuine buildings which exist, even if it means moving them off site to ensure survival (if there is no alternative in an individual case). I can however relate to some of the above by illustrating how some of the problems mentioned have been overcome in renovation projects. At Bedlay near Glasgow in Scotland, an old garderobe chute has been used as a conduit to carry all the necessary plumbing and wiring to each floor, avoiding unnecessary disturbance of the fabric. In another, a similar scheme was used, with necessary water tanks etc being stored within a restored garret, which would not otherwise have been used, though externally appeared genuine preserving the look of the building. Unfortunately, I have seen on more than a few TV satellite dishes affixed to walls and roofs, demeaning the appearance of the whole.
At Barncluith, near Hamilton, Scotland, the old tower was preserved on the building of the mansion which superceded it, by using it to house the boilers etc. for the central heating system. Outwardly this left the tower intact, and repaired, internally the only loss was of a wooden floor/ ceiling. Since the mansion has now gone, and the heating system likewise,the tower is at risk of falling into disrepair, though does survive as a prime candidate for renovation.
I applaud Levan's use of under floor heating, and would like to see more here from others of how similar problems have been overcome without cost to the structure of their buildings. With this in mind I have suggested a forum for renovations.
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Nicolas The First
Member
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posted 11-23-99 06:08 PM
DreamWarrior,
If you need a design for your castle, only some computerized sketches, i can provide you some of the designs that i did, or i can try to do something for you. I just love castles, and I will do this (freely) with a great deal of fun.E-mail me at n_billardon@hotmail.com ------------------
Nicolas The first, king of the Vallebourg virtual kingdom. [This message has been edited by Nicolas The First (edited 11-23-99).]
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canadab
Senior Member
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posted 01-10-2000 01:45 PM
The initial survey and site prep work is underway on the construction of my as yet unnamed "castle." It has what could be described as secret passages that are actually service passages appx 3 feet wide that run the length of the structure and provide acces to a basement and attic level area. The heating system is a combined radiant heat and supplemental boiler with pipes installed in the subfloors. The walls in the vestry, the foyer, and living quarters are plaster and have electrical outlets on the baseboards (i make no pretense toward hiding the fact that I live in a century of electricity). The water is provided by a well pump that passes the ground water through a series of filters and chlorinators before storing 2000 gallons in the upper level tank. The water held overhead provides the pressure neccesary for the faucets below without the need for a pump. The whole afair is three stories above ground and one floor beneathe. The middle Tennessee area is rich with good quality limestone and plenty of quarries and borrow pits to get supplies from. These will also provide the lime plaster for the walls. The floors are all hardwood (oak) with a walnut finish. Construction is scheduled over a 3 year period (once ground has been broken)and is suffering from a bad case of beaureucratic red tape and permits from hell. If all goes well the first phase of construction will be habitable by 2001 with the remainder complete by 2003. Anyone that subscribes to the purist belief that modern conveniences should not be included is on his own as far as I am concerned.. if the castle-builders were doing their works now.. believe me they would have cable.  Brian Canada
aka Amberein du la Anair ------------------
If you can dream it, you can make it a reality. |
duncan
Senior Member
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posted 01-10-2000 02:08 PM
Glad your project is started all beit held up for awhile. What will your outer walls be built of? Are you useing standard frameing or something else, and what other features of a castle will it have?------------------
Megan and Ralph
DUNCAN CASTLE |
canadab
Senior Member
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posted 01-10-2000 04:43 PM
Thanks Duncan.If you mean the keep itself, it is being constructed of 10 by 20 inch cut stone (grey cumberland limestone) 6 inches thick over sectional pre-cast backing 10 inches thick. The pre-cast is reinforced with rebar to allow greater load bearing and structural integrity. There are two towers on the keep on both the left and right front extending 15 feet above the top of the structure. The plans as they are laid out do not allow more than a maintenance access to the roof... (I might look into changing that but I don't see much need for going up there myself). The outer walls and gatehouse are completely concrete harled with lime to appear to be solid limestone. The wall is incomplete blocking only access to the upslope sides of the site. Downslope is grazing range for the horses and one hell of a nice view of the creek and the cliffs on the opposite shore... hate to mess that up... guess I will be invaded from the sea... heheh... The gate features a portcullis that is fixed in the up position permanently. I will make pics as things progress. BTW I just stumbled across your site today and fell in love with the forum. Kudos to the staff. Brian Canada
aka Amberein du la Anair ------------------
If you can dream it, you can make it a reality. | |
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