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posted 10-28-2004 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maria   Click Here to Email Maria     Edit/Delete Message
How would this go if girl is: maid/nobleman's daughter/princess
How would this go if boy is... same things, only for boys...
And I want a long topic , starting from choosind bride/groom to feasts and suchlike...
No rush... don't want long answers... one at a time....

posted 10-31-2004 05:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Peter   Click Here to Email Peter     Edit/Delete Message
Not a single answer ... what a lot!
For myself .. I have not the faintest idea.
But I would have thought that most marriages are like Eastern countries today. And that they were arranged marriages. I do know of instances were prince & princess were matched at less than ten-years old.
A girl would even be betrothed to man that was old enough to be her grandfather. Then he would have to wait until she was at least 13/14!
I would have thought even the family of a serf would try to better their daughter or son..

posted 10-31-2004 08:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maria   Click Here to Email Maria     Edit/Delete Message
The question came to me when I found out that the pictures of the Spanish Infanta made by Velasquez were to be sent to eventual pretendents to the court of Austria. And that the paintings had to pass through France, which was at war with Spain...

posted 10-31-2004 08:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maria   Click Here to Email Maria     Edit/Delete Message
This all portrait sending thing was a bit catchy. In Moldavia, the queen-mother and her son chosed a beautiful bride from portraits (but she was also faimous for her beauty). She arrived, but said she wouldn't remove her veil until after the marriage. It turned out she had caught chicken-pox pox on the way to Moldavia and wasn't beautiful anymore.

[This message has been edited by Maria (edited 10-31-2004).]

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posted 11-01-2004 03:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Merlin   Click Here to Email Merlin     Edit/Delete Message
Marriages in the high nobility were an instrument of political power. I know of many instances, when marriages were arranged as soon as a son or daughter was born. This was a common way to make peace with an enemy, to assure an alingement with a neighbour or to get more power, rights and lands.

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posted 12-06-2005 12:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve-O-Gerst   Click Here to Email Steve-O-Gerst     Edit/Delete Message
Selecting brides by portraits! That's a reliable way to do it...

Once you've made your pick, then what happens? I understand it was a drawn-out process.

posted 12-06-2005 11:46 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Henry VIII was still in mourning for Jane Seymour when Thomas Cromwell, his Chief Minister, persuaded Henry to marry Anne of Cleves to make an alliance with Germany, as Anne's father was the Duke of Cleves. As Henry did not want to marry an ugly lady he sent the painter, Holbein the Younger, to paint a portrait of her so that he could see what she looked like. It was this portrait that persuaded him to marry her. However, when she arrived in England, Henry saw her as very different from her portrait - he found her ugly. He insulted her by saying that she looked like a horse!

As Henry was very dissatisfied with her, he quickly arranged a divorce which they both agreed to amicably. Their marriage had lasted for only six months, but Anne of Cleves stayed at the Court and died in her bed in 1557, outliving Henry by ten years.

Maybe not such a good way to chose a bride in this case.


[This message has been edited by Paul (edited 12-07-2005).]

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posted 12-20-2005 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve-O-Gerst   Click Here to Email Steve-O-Gerst     Edit/Delete Message
I've been wondering...

A lot of the kings married REALLY young girls, like eight year olds, and such, even when the kings were like 30.

Was that just to seal alliances, or would that have been common?

I mean I guess all the nobles had alliances to seal, but they probably had a larger selection of equals to choose from...

posted 12-21-2005 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maria   Click Here to Email Maria     Edit/Delete Message
As far as I know, the girl would have to be over 12 for the marriage to be valid. Because in the Medieval time, marriage was about children (as the religious reason I mean. I don't have to get into details, right?)

posted 12-21-2005 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maria   Click Here to Email Maria     Edit/Delete Message
Could the girl refuse? Without starting a war, that is?

posted 12-21-2005 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaive     Edit/Delete Message
Medieval marriage was different than later marriage in the 16th century+.First before the 12th century monogamy was not the norm(we both have accounts of multiple marriages and art works showing the early crusaders with more than one wife);instead the normal marriage was the same as the traditonal Chinese marriage(one chief wife and a number of lesser wives,in fact,the original meaning of "queen" in old english was the chief wife).Early marriages were often my abduction which may or may not have been a ritual(as it was in Tibet).There were also simple leman(mistresses).

The church gained enormously in moral influence during the 11th and 12th centuries,gradually getting transforming rape into a temporary event and in establishing monogamy.It was not able to establish it's idea of incest or to end married priests or even to make church marriage universal-perhaps the two were related

The standard medieval marriage went something like this:boy travels around and finds a girl he likes;boy now asks his clan or lord(depending upon whether the region was under gentilism or manorialism) they or he(might also be a she) then negotiaged a betrothal with the girl's family(the girl wishes might or might not matter);the betrothal ceremony/celebration was held by the girl's clan and the marriage might or might not be consumated right then;afterwards the marriage was held by the groom's clan and was really the formal admission of the girl into her husband's family.The girl usually received a morning gift upon marriage and the groom often received a jointure upon betrothal from the girl's clan.If a church marriage the banns were read before hand and it was normal to give the girl a gift of money at the wedding and to further give money to beggars attending it.Betrothal was socially binding as marriage;but not by the church.The girl was sometimes forced to wed even in one instance a bride having her hand forcably place on the pommel of her husband to be sword as a token of her consent to the marriage.The church always demanded the girl's consent;but socially it was not needed.

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posted 12-22-2005 03:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Merlin   Click Here to Email Merlin     Edit/Delete Message
Glaive, about which region are you talking in your description of a medieval marriage? "Clans" and all that ring a (scottish?) bell. As you're writing about crusaders having several wifes: This would never have been tolerated in medieval Europe, but might have been possible in the Orient. Some men changed their wifes often, that's true. Charlemagne, for instance, had many wifes during his life but he had problems to justify this in his dealings with the pope.
But there were also many women who re-married after their husbands death , esp. when they were of noble blood. Like a women called Adelheid, living in the 10./11. century: She was first a princess of Burgundy, afterwards Queen of Italy and later wife of the german emperor Otto I. (the Great).

posted 12-22-2005 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaive     Edit/Delete Message
Merlin the clans I was thinking of were French not Scottish.France was a very mixed bag culturally.Groups organized around clans of kinsmen rather than manorial fellowships were commonplace in France,Germany and Britain.England is special in that,though it had commoners who still organized themselves by clans the national culture of the gentry had become entirely manorial.Naturally most people are over influenced by the English culture of the MA.

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posted 01-06-2006 02:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Steve-O-Gerst   Click Here to Email Steve-O-Gerst     Edit/Delete Message
Glaive, you mention rape and incest.

The freqency of these behaviors in the medieval era is somewhat of interest to me.

Of course, if there's much to tell about it, starting a different topic would probably be appropriate.

Then again, some of the things that might go on after the ceremonies might be considered rape today... I wonder if a lady could do anything about that, aside from poisoning her husband that is.

All times are PT (US)

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