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Author	Topic: windows/interance ways
Gothic Builder Senior Member	posted 03-07-2000 06:25 PM Question or Discussion? Started doing the upper part of the walls for the interance way. All the books I'v been looking through, most of the castles have archways with a portcullis in the front and square windows. If I have archs over the windows will it look to much like a Abbey or should I use square with arrow slots? Trying to keep as much to form as possible!
duncan Senior Member	posted 03-08-2000 07:38 AM Irish tower houses used arched windows as well as some castles. Those built in the tudor times seem to be famous for them. The loop holes are often nearer the ground leval with the wider arched windows higher up. Good to hear your project is going well.
Levan Moderator	posted 03-08-2000 08:17 AM The vast majority of Scottish castles have rectangular windows. There are some interesting exceptions: Huntley Castle (Aberdeenshire) has some interesting bay windows on its upper floor. Kildrummy Castle (Aberdeenshire), Inveraray Castle (Argyll) have some arched windows (I think Doune, Perthshire, does too). Blackness Castle (West Lothian)and many others have rectangular windows constructed in round arches. In reality, most 'real' castles (where windows are cut into thick walls) are constructed in this fashion. Many Scottish castles, instead of having a portcullis, have an iron 'yett' which is a gate located immediately behind or in front of the main entrance door. From a modern perspective, these are obviously easy to install and there are several 'original' yetts that could be used as prototypes. Thinking of windows and entrances - Stokesay Castle (on the Welsh/English border) has some striking arched windows on the great hall where it faces the inner courtyard. Stokesay also has rather splendid windows in its half-timbered solar: http://www.castlewales.com/stokesay.html Something to get you started anyway! Levan
duncan Senior Member	posted 03-08-2000 09:58 AM Heres a couple of castles that have both types. Bamburgh has both from many different construction dates and castle riseing has lower windows that are rectangular with its upper story window caseings being rounded. Claypotts, Middleham, Crookston, Edzill, and Carlisle are rectangular with out arches as were many others. Although Crookston is being rethought of as a castle due to its lack of arrow slits and other items of defence in spite of its thick walls. Hope this helps with your design. [This message has been edited by duncan (edited 10-03-2000).]
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 03-08-2000 11:49 AM Windows tend to reflect the status of the rooms they light. Simple passages, small rooms, cellars and other low status rooms will have cheap windows and this generally means small and square headed for any period. Solars, guestchambers and other moderate status rooms will have more expensive windows, but often still fairly plain, larger, perhaps with a divided light or a round arched head to show the higher status. High status rooms, basically the great hall or a royal bedchamber, will have expensive windows reflecting the height of fashion. This depends on when the castle was built, Norman windows would have round arches (possible decorated with chevron designs) supported on columns with pillow capitols, possible even two or three sets of columns, windows of this type survive at The Tower of London, Norwich, Dover and dozens of other castles. Gothic windows, with pointed arches and window tracery, survive at, the later castles of, Warkworth, The Tower, Kenilworth and dozens of others. The Tower even has palladian windows inserted Christopher Wren. If you are thinking of arrow slots these can be a amazing set of shapes, which could add interest. ------------------ Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them, Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design and nurses clean out the garderobes! http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/index.html
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 03-08-2000 02:38 PM A good example of what Philip says is Bothwell castle, where a variety of window styles and sizes were used, the larger and more ornate being used to light the greater rooms, and other more ordinary styles to light lesser chambers. If you wish to visit my web-site, take a look at the splendid pointed arched window which once illuminated the dais of the chapel, and compare with the other visible examples. Similarly grand windows are visible from within the courtyard lighting the great hall. Another variation is at Kilmaronock Castle, a large 14th century simple keep. Here the 3rd floor boasts probably the earliest secular example of transom and mullion (having horizontal and vertical division spars)windows in Scotland.These windows are round arched. I'd be very interested in the influence for Duncan's comments on Crookston, and which authority is questioning it's credentials as a castle. It is very much a castle, and very cleverly designed for it's time. Tranter did not include it in his 'Fortified House in Scotland' series because he saw it as one of the great fortresses of the land, and in 1489 King James 4th thought so much of it that when the Earl of Lennox went into rebellion with the Lyles of Duchal, he brought the great bombard Mons Meg from Edinburgh. It has no lack of defensive features.Perhaps the reference was to Crookston Old House in the borders, where an ancient keep has been much modernised and many of the original features hidden. The original builder here also had the house well fortified, and therefore it is a castle. ------------------ 'Give me the groves that lofty brave, The storms, by Castle Gordon'. Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon. [This message has been edited by wurdsmiff (edited 03-08-2000).]
duncan Senior Member	posted 03-08-2000 07:21 PM Sure Gordon no problem, David and Charles book of castles isbn 071537976-3 pages 414 and 415 It also has a nice picture of the castle. The photograph shows the small number of defensive gun or arrow slits compaired to other castles built around the same time. I just passed on what they wrote. My thoughts are, that as a fortress, its lack of a defensive posture is not a decideing facter wither its a "real" castle or not.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 03-09-2000 02:57 PM I can only assume that Plantagentet Somerset Fry has an extremely exacting definition of a castle, and for fear of re-opening that debate, will allow you to decide for yourself. I cannot imagine how he can considerexcluding it as a castle(he did after all include it) because of a shortfall of a single form of defensive feature, which could exclude hundreds of other castle sites. Crookston has a unique design, so much so that McGibbon and Ross could not include it within any of their categories, and had to list it as a separate entity with one or two other unusual sites. I shall have to try and get a copy of the book to read the full article. Unfortunately it is currently out of print. ------------------ 'Give me the groves that lofty brave, The storms, by Castle Gordon'. Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon. [This message has been edited by wurdsmiff (edited 03-09-2000).]
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 03-10-2000 10:25 AM What he says about Crookston, "There is a noticeable shortage of defensive arrow loops or gun ports, which has prompted the idea that Crookston was not a real fortress, despite its thick walls." he gives it a worth visiting label. It not clear from this who is responsible for the idea that it is not a fortress, either Fry or one of his source references. Certainly the question of what is and what isn't a castle is a fascinating one which has much to do with the the ideas, and personality, of whoever is writing. I sometimes feel that some sites are rejected or included purely because some other author has included or rejected them. Fortunately, since it adds great interest, castlology is full of opinionated characters.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 03-10-2000 03:20 PM Very true, and I admit openly to having had to make a decision myself on where to draw the line between a fortified house and sensible security. Is a house fortified because it comes from the right era and has a drawbar on the door(a defence against intruders), or do we have to have two, or three recognized defensive features. The decision lies with whoever is compiling that particular list, and you are at the mercy of the critics if you make the wrong decision. ------------------ 'Give me the groves that lofty brave, The storms, by Castle Gordon'. Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 03-10-2000 04:19 PM At the risk of running way off topic. The difference for me is that between active and passive defence. A high wall is a pasive defence. A high wall, with a wall walk from which one can attack attackers is an active defence. Arrow and gun loops are features for active defence, a moat is a passive defence. A passive defence works all the time regardless, an active defence requires a person to make it work. Of course, this still leaves gray areas (How many arrowloops present a serious active defence?). But it does cover the difference between the large number of moated houses that existed in medieval England (virtually ever farm in my area was moated) and a fortified manor house with a gatetower with a wall walk and loops. This was a recognised difference in medieval times. The most basic form of active defence is the wall walk, which needs crenellations to be effective. A licence was needed to crenellate a house, but none was need to build a moat around a house. We tend to whine and complain about the crime rate but historically crime is at very low levels, in medieval times crime was high and homes needed to be protected against bands of thieves, hence the large number of moated houses all around England (only a very few survive, since moats naturally silt up and tend to smell and are filled in.) On the borders large gangs of thieves, sometimes called moss troopers, led to the building of very strong passive defenses in many poorer houses (Hundreds of bastle houses were built) and active defensive features in, what otherwise would have been, moderate sized houses.
Gothic Builder Senior Member	posted 03-10-2000 08:03 PM Duncan thanks for the info and the thoughts put in to this.Well after a lot of drawing and a little auto cad here's a idea for it. Wurdsmiff the pointed archs will be incorperated into the living area and tower with a couple of arrow slits thanks to the status for the rooms put forth by Philip for it will show off the room better as I get to it. Rectangular on the side of the interance way.Levan where can I find out more on the yetts you were talking about instead of the portcullis would like to check into it for the front door but I will still have a portcullis just for the apperance in front.Thanks Again!!!!!!!!!
canadab Senior Member	posted 03-11-2000 06:20 PM For ideas on decor try: http://www.millionaire.com/sub/mall/storefront.htm Canadab ------------------ If you can dream it, you can make it a reality.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 03-12-2000 04:20 AM Just a note to say that I have a tendancy to agree with what Philip says regarding passive and active defence. Barring a door does not make a house a castle because in itself it does not allow for direct assault by the defender on the attacker, but an adjacent arrow loop or gunloop changes things, allowing repellant action to be taken. ------------------ 'Give me the groves that lofty brave, The storms, by Castle Gordon'. Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.
Levan Moderator	posted 03-12-2000 08:31 AM One picture on the web: http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/research/glossary/yett.html There must be others, but I haven't found them 'yet'! Braemar Castle has a huge yett - not sure from which stage of the castle's development it belongs. Comlongon Castle, I believe, still has its original yett - although I don't this is shown on the website. A site you may find of interest is the Archelogical survey of Tioram Castle. This makes a comparison of the structure of Tioram and other similar castles; particularly in respect to how the castle changed and developed over the centuries. Also, various aspect of the castle's defenses are discussed: http://www.tioram.org.uk/part4-b.htm Levan
Barcelona Member	posted 04-05-2000 07:57 AM I like the Idea of the yett, but can't tell from the Illustration how it is secured in the closed position. Do you by any chance have in information on this? ------------------ The hardest part of building a castle is setting the first stone.
duncan Senior Member	posted 04-07-2000 04:45 AM Not sure of that particular yett, but there was no hard and fast rule on how they were secured, simple latchs to very large draw bolts were used.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 04-07-2000 07:10 AM I concur with Duncan on this one,the operation of the yett was often a feature in it's own right, a few examples opening inward, ie it could not be opened until the main door within was open. The yett was really there to make battering the main door more difficult, preventing an obstruction to battering devices, and offering a screen once the door was open. latches would be a little simple, and would have been supplemented by another device such as that above, since a latch could be lifted from the exterior. A large plate guarding the area around a latch was common, preventing arms getting around, though the weaving of the bars on some doors was sometimes enough. Also locks were not unknown even in early times. Long draw bars would be more common in lesser houses, and remember that for the majority of earlier tower houses the main entrance with yett would have been at first floor level,accessed by removable stair. A plank or simple bridge would have been offered across to a wall top , or a ladder downward by the gateman or keeper, he having viewed who approached in the first place. ------------------ 'Give me the groves that lofty brave, The storms, by Castle Gordon'. Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon. [This message has been edited by wurdsmiff (edited 04-07-2000).]
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 04-07-2000 04:07 PM With most castles in England the way of securing a door was a long thick draw bar which sat in a hole in the wall by the door and was pulled across into a receiving hole. These two holes at waist height are a charactestic of a fortified door. Since they were designed to resist battering the thicker and stronger the drawbar the better, the usual size appears to be about 4 inches square (10cm). Locks where used but are of little use in defending against a battering ram! ------------------ Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them, Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design and nurses clean out the garderobes! http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/index.html
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 04-08-2000 03:37 AM I agree my response was badly worded, and I should have expanded the point about latches being supplementd to include other devices. However my points are valid. The heavy wooden door behind would have strenghtened any device pushing the yett inward. The tower houses which I was describing would not have been built to withstand great sieges, and that is why I said devices rather than rams when mentioning battering tools.I was thinking more of heavy hammers, and of course axes and the like, from which the yett would provide protection. In the heyday of the tower house, the use in sieges of battering rams and the like had been superceded by the use of artillery and gunpowder. Most smaller properties would not have had the means or funding to defend against such, and in times of invasion, their sheer numbers would have meant too much of a delay for each to be besieged. Tower houses were built to withstand smaller scale attacks, by raiding parties and the like who may have carried heavy tools , but not siege engines or artillery. ------------------ 'Give me the groves that lofty brave, The storms, by Castle Gordon'. Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 04-08-2000 05:17 PM I'm sorry Gordon my posting was rather illconsidered. I didn't mean to put down what you where saying rather to support it (well most of it). You where quite right though to realise that I hadn't really consider the implication of light attacks on towers. However, in the end, a lock is usually just a special type of latch (often not the strongest) ------------------ Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them, Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design and nurses clean out the garderobes! http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/index.html
Barcelona Member	posted 04-12-2000 08:30 AM Thanks for the time and trouble of your responces. Most of all they serve to remind me that the period in question was one in which we were providing more of our own defence, usually from forces less than a full attack by invading armys. The picture of a yett with a stout draw bar or strong wooden door, topped by some form of machicolation, and manned by a faithful porter, would certinly give pause to all but the most determined housebreakers. The racket alone, of trying to get through all that would surely raise the entire household.
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 04-12-2000 03:22 PM Bluewater, Philip has described the structure of a turnpike stair very well, I have a B&W photo of one at Bothwell which illustrates it very well, would you like it forwarded? Philip, no offence taken, I did not explain properly in the first place. One other point about drawbars on smaller properties, in a relatively small household it required someone to stay within to operate it. If everyone went out for harvesting (bearing in mind that many were fortified farmhouses) or whatever, another device was required to secure the entry. The only alternative was to leave someone behind - presenting a difficult choice when the harvest needed to be gathered quickly. Basic security was required even when attack was not imminent, especially when your neighbours were acquisitive!
Philip Davis unregistered	posted 04-12-2000 04:39 PM Yes. I was thinking big castles again! ------------------ Neurotics build castles in the air, psychotics live in them, Psychiatrists charge the rent, art therapists do the interior design and nurses clean out the garderobes! http://www.castlesontheweb.com/members/philipdavis/index.html
Bluewater Senior Member	posted 04-13-2000 03:20 AM Gordon - I think you have Barcelona and myself mixed up heh heh. Regards, Bluewater
wurdsmiff unregistered	posted 04-13-2000 04:52 AM Philip, no harm in thinking big. Barcelona & Bluewater, apologies, the offer remains. ------------------ 'Give me the groves that lofty brave, The storms, by Castle Gordon'. Visit my web-site at www.castlesontheweb.com/members/wurdsmiff/castles.htm Gordon.